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Old 09-24-2007, 12:51 PM   #1
STYLE
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Default Stylemaster vs Hz Deep sig battle

Sig battle:
1rd
theme ??? TBA any suggestions??
deadline: weds midnight eastern time

to go along with the theme our our discussion lets add a dimension.... you must have original artwork elements.
the amount is up to the artist. (lets explore your theory )


we will have open judging based on these criteria

technical execution
creativity
conceptual execution (how well did the artists convey the message)
overall dopeness lol (visual beauty)


Hz, feel free to add or adjust these terms.
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Old 09-24-2007, 12:56 PM   #2
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what about only using the stock brushes, effects included in PS, nothing downloaded b/c Hz deep stated some critic about the work of some artists here b/c they use dl brushes, effects, etc.
I think that's a pretty offensive statement but yea

btw I just finished a sig which includes no dl brushes or so on, just the default settings in PS:

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Old 09-24-2007, 01:12 PM   #3
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so to continue our discussion......

i agree with many of your points, but i feel your definition of plagiarism is too broad. or maybe i misunderstood you.
yes taking another persons artwork and displaying it in my gallery as my own is a bold faced lie, but isn't that completly diff from the sigs that are all over this board?

us law requires you to change 33 percent of an image in order to avoid copyright violations. but what about artists like warhol? a large chunk of his work was simple alteration of others work.

i also feel that artistic value is in the eye of the beholder, independant of the artists experience or technique. look at the galleries full of abstract paintings. one splash of red paint on a white canvas lol.

not to beat a dead horse but warhol (a fav artist of mine) even photographed piss on ph reactive paper. there have been monkeys, elephants and i just read an article on worms, painting.

and to refrence your analogy of the 4 bar soul sample premo, kanye and RZA each have a catalog of such beats. plus the 1st beats were nothing but looped breakbeats.
think of how many classic beats are nothing but a loop and kick and snare. yes music has evolved but does that somehow void the creativity of past work?

i think you have zeroed in on one type of creativity and negated many other forms.

thoughts?

Last edited by STYLE; 09-24-2007 at 01:28 PM.
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Old 09-24-2007, 01:23 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The GFX View Post
what about only using the stock brushes, effects included in PS, nothing downloaded b/c Hz deep stated some critic about the work of some artists here b/c they use dl brushes, effects, etc.
I think that's a pretty offensive statement but yea

btw I just finished a sig which includes no dl brushes or so on, just the default settings in PS:

funny cause all i use is the basic ps settings lol(i do use alien filters). to be honest i was trained b4 the "brush revolution" so my technique involves layers with blending settings. i really don't see the massive appeal in brushes to be honest. i was purposely taught how to recreate most filters from scratch to get a full understanding of how they worked. ive found that in many cases you have much more control and flexibility by doing it yourself.

but i'm not feeling the suggestion, i kinda want this match to be "style vs style, tech vs tech" so i don't want to limit the tools available.

i wanna see what Hz comes with cause he talks mad shit in a sort of between the lines snide remark type of way. (which i throughly enjoy BTW)

so i want theme suggestions, and any other limits will be determined by me and him. not to shoot you down... but if you want i'll battle you using the default ps.

and bk babies is tight. BTW
( i would play with the fadeouts on rza and ugod and maybe the color balance to get a better blend. they seem to pop out unnaturally , just an honest opinion) but tight none the less.

Last edited by STYLE; 09-24-2007 at 01:26 PM.
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Old 09-24-2007, 08:59 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STYLEMASTERR View Post
so to continue our discussion......

i agree with many of your points, but i feel your definition of plagiarism is too broad. or maybe i misunderstood you.
yes taking another persons artwork and displaying it in my gallery as my own is a bold faced lie, but isn't that completly diff from the sigs that are all over this board?
I don't think my definition of plagarism is too broad, although it sounds ridiculous when apllied to "the sigs that are all over this board" I meant that purely in the context of your "industry" example.

Don't be under the illusion that i think that anyone who just throws together a sig with their favourite basketball player over a logo of their team is guilty of a lack of creativity, they no doubt feel a certain amount of pride in creating their own homage to their team, and who am I to deny them that. If on the other hand, they want to take themselves seriously enough to resort to retoric implying their superior creativity because of their ability to copy and paste, then surely their creativity comes into question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by STYLEMASTERR View Post
us law requires you to change 33 percent of an image in order to avoid copyright violations. but what about artists like warhol? a large chunk of his work was simple alteration of others work.
I don't see the relevance of Andy Warhol's work, although I can see how you might have thought about him as an example. Although his work could be argued to be simple alterations of others material, a lot of it involved a lot more thought than simply removing a background from a few images then placing them side by side.

With a large part of his work being screen printed, he at the very least had to choose his subject, decide how best to cut his stencil to retain a likeness, choose his colour palette for desired impact. Even in the most simple works it could be argued he forced the viewer to ask questions that simply viewing the original might never have done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by STYLEMASTERR View Post
i also feel that artistic value is in the eye of the beholder, independant of the artists experience or technique. look at the galleries full of abstract paintings. one splash of red paint on a white canvas lol.

not to beat a dead horse but warhol (a fav artist of mine) even photographed piss on ph reactive paper. there have been monkeys, elephants and i just read an article on worms, painting.
..not to mention genrative music computer algorithms, robots with AI jamming with drummer's etc.

With this kind of thing I'm sure more than ever the artistic value does lie in the viewers perception. Take the animal's painting, we could have a whole other discussion about whether the creativity lies with the animals themselves or those who facilitated the conditions for them to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by STYLEMASTERR View Post
and to refrence your analogy of the 4 bar soul sample premo, kanye and RZA each have a catalog of such beats. plus the 1st beats were nothing but looped breakbeats.
think of how many classic beats are nothing but a loop and kick and snare. yes music has evolved but does that somehow void the creativity of past work?
I can see how what I said might have been interpreted that way. However I've got nothing against techniques that revolve around recycling pre-existing material. It's just that personally I feel there is a certain threshold of creativity any piece of work should reach before I can consider it to be valid as a work of "art" in it's own right. Of course the creativity in the music of the past isn't undermined by music's evolution, but the fact remains that the threshold of creativity rises exponentially alongside the advancement of technological and social factors.

For example when the turntable was the only tool available to a DJ and Kool Herc started extending breaks, that was new, people saw the value in it because it was the only way they could hear the breaks they loved extended for that long. Then GMF came up with the cross-fader and the whole process grew and expanded, now you don't get a DJ standing there simply repeating the break of a record unless they're chopping the shit out of it in some complex beat-juggle, because nobody would be impressed and they know that.

In regards to Premo, Kanye, RZA and countless others, yes they do use large sections of pre-existing material from time to time, but they do for the most part impart a new structure to the material. Whether this is at the level of the groove through manipulating the timing of the sampled material alone, at the level of creating a new structure throughout a song, or through manipulating pitch and the order of individual notes and hits. Substantially more creativity goes into this process than that adopted by many amatuer beat-makers of looping 1/2/4 bars for 5 minutes with a primitve drum pattern providing the only variation. The later 'contemporary' amatuer's being those who I was referring to in my previous analogy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by STYLEMASTERR View Post
i think you have zeroed in on one type of creativity and negated many other forms.

thoughts?
I wouldn't say that exactly, I might not have referenced many other forms to try and make my point, but regardless of whether they involve complicated technical elements, accumulated knowledge or just some kind of creative thought process, there must be with all types of creativity a line that is drawn between creating and copying. I think I've actually been quite conservative in where I've drawn it.

I'm amazed! I hit up wutangcorp in a bid to kill some down-time at the weekend, and find myself find deep in conversation on the nature of creativity.

I'm afraid we're going to go around in circles on this one though ad infinitum. The subject is just too subjective!

In response to The GFX...
I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say, I have nothing against using brushes and filters, and I don't believe I actually said that. I certainly didn't mean to cause offence. I was referring to just cutting and pasting a logo or graphic and little else. My key point was meant to be the lack of value in doing this, as opposed to combining more subtle elements to create something with more originality.
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Old 09-24-2007, 09:18 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STYLEMASTERR View Post
Sig battle:
1rd
theme ??? TBA any suggestions??
deadline: weds midnight eastern time

to go along with the theme our our discussion lets add a dimension.... you must have original artwork elements.
the amount is up to the artist. (lets explore your theory )


we will have open judging based on these criteria

technical execution
creativity
conceptual execution (how well did the artists convey the message)
overall dopeness lol (visual beauty)


Hz, feel free to add or adjust these terms.
Judging by your responses to my initial post, I seriously doubt "my theory" is even a factor in this battle. You clearly have a higher level of creativity in your work than that sig indicated.

As far as terms and theme go, I'm not bothered either way brushes and filters or none, whatever you like. I've got to crash out now though, I'll hit this thread up after I finish working tomorrow.
Pz.
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Old 09-24-2007, 09:21 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hz Deep View Post
In response to The GFX...
I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say, I have nothing against using brushes and filters, and I don't believe I actually said that. I certainly didn't mean to cause offence. I was referring to just cutting and pasting a logo or graphic and little else. My key point was meant to be the lack of value in doing this, as opposed to combining more subtle elements to create something with more originality.
I was talking about your comment where you mentioned that ppl use brushes other ppl made, effects, fonts etc.
your statement right here is clear and I respect it, I just think there's nothing bad about using brushes somebody else did as long as they aren't the most important thing in somebody's sig. put some effects on it, make it look different, be creative (creativity and originality seems to be the main topic here).

check my thread and I guarantee you it'll be hard to see any obviously used brushes or fonts (most of the time I use the Agency font so) somebody else did.

http://www.wutang-corp.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41037

nice discussion guys, interesting read
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Old 09-24-2007, 09:27 PM   #8
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i just have one response to your statements.
"With a large part of his work being screen printed, he at the very least had to choose his subject, decide how best to cut his stencil to retain a likeness, choose his colour palette for desired impact. Even in the most simple works it could be argued he forced the viewer to ask questions that simply viewing the original might never have done."

sounds just like a photoshop cut and paste with some colorbalance/hue adjustments


which is similar, in point, to this:


"For example when the turntable was the only tool available to a DJ and Kool Herc started extending breaks, that was new, people saw the value in it because it was the only way they could hear the breaks they loved extended for that long. Then GMF came up with the cross-fader and the whole process grew and expanded, now you don't get a DJ standing there simply repeating the break of a record unless they're chopping the shit out of it in some complex beat-juggle, because nobody would be impressed and they know that."

technology alters the speed and ease in which an artist does his thing.



coincidently i was surfing around looking for new design inspiration and found this.
http://www.artchive.com/juxt/juxt9/juxt9.html
this 1pg article talks about art vs n'art- or "original/traditional art vs nontrad. when u find time scan it over. he basically draws the line of what is true art. especially the impact of tools that allow the common man to create art. i think you'll find both our positions represented.
but yeah, circular logic. i enjoyed this meeting of the minds.

next subject...battle theme.

Last edited by STYLE; 09-24-2007 at 09:35 PM.
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Old 09-24-2007, 10:38 PM   #9
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Stylemaster vs Hz Deep sig battle



^^^LMAO !^^^
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Old 09-24-2007, 10:45 PM   #10
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what's so funny about that?
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Old 09-24-2007, 11:25 PM   #11
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yo this is gonna be a tight battle. all i know is that Hz is a seriously talented guy and he will definitely come through on this
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Old 09-25-2007, 12:34 AM   #12
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we need theme suggestions. since no one has made 1 yet, 1st sugg. is official
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Old 09-25-2007, 01:46 AM   #13
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whoever wins will be mah sig


make em vote or somthin
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Old 09-25-2007, 09:06 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STYLEMASTERR View Post
i just have one response to your statements.
"With a large part of his work being screen printed, he at the very least had to choose his subject, decide how best to cut his stencil to retain a likeness, choose his colour palette for desired impact. Even in the most simple works it could be argued he forced the viewer to ask questions that simply viewing the original might never have done."

sounds just like a photoshop cut and paste with some colorbalance/hue adjustments
Of course I agree, when we are talking about a slightly more involved PS process, changing colour balance etc to create a similar effect. I see my point as more like -
vs


Quote:
Originally Posted by STYLEMASTERR View Post
which is similar, in point, to this:


"For example when the turntable was the only tool available to a DJ and Kool Herc started extending breaks, that was new, people saw the value in it because it was the only way they could hear the breaks they loved extended for that long. Then GMF came up with the cross-fader and the whole process grew and expanded, now you don't get a DJ standing there simply repeating the break of a record unless they're chopping the shit out of it in some complex beat-juggle, because nobody would be impressed and they know that."

technology alters the speed and ease in which an artist does his thing.
But you have to agree that with advancements in technology the bar is raised somewhat? A DJ can now just hit loop on a set of CDJ's and extend a break infinitely, but surely the creativity in that process lies with the inventor of the loop function on the CD decks, not with the DJ? If they decide to use the freedom this function gives them to elaborate on that break and develop it, perhaps by banging out a new bassline over it, or looping a few more CDJ's and cutting between them, then great. If they just hit loop stand back and grab their drink, what seperates them from the crowd? apart from having pushed a button twice. I know I'd want my money back if I'd paid to see a show and this happend, the fact that in theory this was all Kool Herc did with turntables doesn't make it creative now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by STYLEMASTERR View Post
coincidently i was surfing around looking for new design inspiration and found this.
http://www.artchive.com/juxt/juxt9/juxt9.html
this 1pg article talks about art vs n'art- or "original/traditional art vs nontrad. when u find time scan it over. he basically draws the line of what is true art. especially the impact of tools that allow the common man to create art. i think you'll find both our positions represented.
but yeah, circular logic. i enjoyed this meeting of the minds.

next subject...battle theme.
This article looks interesting, I'm going to have a proper read of that when I'm not so busy, which brings me to my next point... we've got a minor emergency on a website we're working on which is likely to take up most of my time tonight. Then tomorrow I'm off to play at a party at the other end of the country, and as it coinsides with my with my girlfriend's annual leave she wants to stay down there for the duration. Which puts me out of it until the 7th or 8th of October.

i was going to get on it this afternoon, but as we haven't got a theme sorted are you up for postponing until then? It might give us more opportunity to discuss ideas for a really good theme, and I'd like to be able to enjoy creating this, not just bang something out in a spare hour between paid projects.
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Old 09-25-2007, 11:24 AM   #15
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eh, w/e man. classsic hz. lots of talk little action.
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