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Old 10-14-2011, 03:14 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by Chevy Chase View Post
Sopranos is way more subtle. Breaking Bad doesn't even come close to the Sopranos. What's the most ridiculous thing that happened on the Sopranos?

Breaking bad had Walt exploding Tuco's office, defying the laws of physics. Ok, I'll let that slip because it was actually pretty cool.

In season two Walt meets Janes dad in a bar, lol. The plane crash, lol. Seriously?

Those retarded cartel cousins, lol. Two walking action movie cliches.

You already know how I feel about the Gus' face off scene.

Don't get me wrong, I love the show, but there's no need for this over the top bombastic bullshit.
You don't understand the distinction between realism and subtlety. The Sopranos is more realistic than the Breaking Bad, but as a show it's not subtle in any way at all. The character development (or lack thereof), the plot, the messages etc. are all doled out heavy handedly and without much nuance. The time and craft put into Breaking Bad really shows through, and the lack of thought put into some elements of the Sopranos really shows through also.

In Breaking Bad, unrealistic things happen all the time, but they are portrayed in a subtler manner than in the Sopranos (i never said BB was all that subtle, just far more than the Sopranos).

The Sopranos as a show, with the themes that it has, is completely bombastic and simplistic in comparison with really great, subtle and sophisticated television (like The Wire or OZ or Breaking Bad).


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Originally Posted by DickyTouch View Post
As far as the Sopranos goes....i thought the whole gay Vito thing was annoying and done for shock value...to get some cheap reaction, not that they needed it.

The ending was awful....Tony deserved an on screen death at the very least...or to be locked up or even become a rat.

The ending works if they finish on film, but they didnt...that was it. Dumb.
A lot of the Sopranos is shock value (Tony constantly murdering people is ridiculous and used as a facile device to ram home the message about him being an incorrigible but charismatic sociochopath or psychopath). I don't want to turn this into an argument about the Sopranos, because it was a really entertaining and on the whole great show, but it was so unsophisticated and one dimension in many ways.
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Old 10-14-2011, 07:47 AM   #347
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You don't understand the distinction between realism and subtlety. The Sopranos is more realistic than the Breaking Bad, but as a show it's not subtle in any way at all. The character development (or lack thereof), the plot, the messages etc. are all doled out heavy handedly and without much nuance. The time and craft put into Breaking Bad really shows through, and the lack of thought put into some elements of the Sopranos really shows through also.

In Breaking Bad, unrealistic things happen all the time, but they are portrayed in a subtler manner than in the Sopranos (i never said BB was all that subtle, just far more than the Sopranos).

The Sopranos as a show, with the themes that it has, is completely bombastic and simplistic in comparison with really great, subtle and sophisticated television (like The Wire or OZ or Breaking Bad).




A lot of the Sopranos is shock value (Tony constantly murdering people is ridiculous and used as a facile device to ram home the message about him being an incorrigible but charismatic sociochopath or psychopath). I don't want to turn this into an argument about the Sopranos, because it was a really entertaining and on the whole great show, but it was so unsophisticated and one dimension in many ways.
I do know the difference. And that's why I'm using those words. In Breaking Bad a lot of stuff happens in one episode. Take the first one for example, we see Walter get cancer, turn into a drug manufacturer/dealer and kill a guy. In the Sopranos, everything is spread over more episodes with more background information and details. I would say this certainly shows in character 'deepness'. We know more about most characters on Sopranos than on Breaking Bad. Maybe it's just a preference of pacing.

I would say neither BB or Sopranos are simplistic. I do agree that Tony and most of those gangsters are unsophisticated and just plain unintelligent. They're not exactly rocket scientists like Walt probably could have been. But don't say they're one dimensional. They're street smart and Walt is more book smart.

I don't understand how you can say Sopranos is more bombastic. It's a realistic portrayal of a mafia family. It's never really been over the top, nothing on the Sopranos has made me roll my eyes and think 'really?'. Walt 'causing' a plane crash almost right above his home, two cartel cousins that never speak, except in a flashback of their childhood, a bomb attached to a wheelchair blowing off half of Gus' face and then having him walk out the room and straightening his tie before swan diving to the floor makes me hate the writers at times. If you think that's "portrayed in a subtle manner" I don't think there's much left to argue about.
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Old 10-14-2011, 03:12 PM   #348
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all i know is that tony in a coma dream shit was fucking horrible.
way worse than anything i have seen on breaking bad.

but i was a fan of the sopranos ending.
choose your own, dear viewers.
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Old 10-14-2011, 09:01 PM   #349
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Actually, that whole dream sequence had relevance.


MOST viewers don't fully grasp it. ONly maybe partially. I know I only partially did until I read that link Jasper put up.

It explains alot, and it showed the depth of the writing.


Both shows are written excellently, as are most emmy award winning dramas.



And after reading more about the ending of the Sopranos, i respect it more.


I'll be honest, I didn't hate the ending at all when i first saw it. It was different, and it made you wonder...

Than I later, I kinda started to dislike it, but only because I was being lazy and not paying attention.

Like Chase said, the details are all there, and I suppose a more savvy fan/viewer probably understood it better.


The fact that the final scene was shot mostly from Tony's point of view, and the silence and sudden darkness is us experiencing what Tony did at his death...which is nothing...He's dead. Didnt even hear or see it coming.

And that theme of not hearing it coming had been mentioned more than once during the final season. All the clues are there.

Like I said, you'd have to be extremely savvy and a fanatic of the show to picI up on all of them. I know that I didn't.
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Old 10-14-2011, 11:27 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by Chevy Chase View Post
I do know the difference. And that's why I'm using those words. In Breaking Bad a lot of stuff happens in one episode. Take the first one for example, we see Walter get cancer, turn into a drug manufacturer/dealer and kill a guy. In the Sopranos, everything is spread over more episodes with more background information and details. I would say this certainly shows in character 'deepness'. We know more about most characters on Sopranos than on Breaking Bad. Maybe it's just a preference of pacing.

I would say neither BB or Sopranos are simplistic. I do agree that Tony and most of those gangsters are unsophisticated and just plain unintelligent. They're not exactly rocket scientists like Walt probably could have been. But don't say they're one dimensional. They're street smart and Walt is more book smart.

I don't understand how you can say Sopranos is more bombastic. It's a realistic portrayal of a mafia family. It's never really been over the top, nothing on the Sopranos has made me roll my eyes and think 'really?'. Walt 'causing' a plane crash almost right above his home, two cartel cousins that never speak, except in a flashback of their childhood, a bomb attached to a wheelchair blowing off half of Gus' face and then having him walk out the room and straightening his tie before swan diving to the floor makes me hate the writers at times. If you think that's "portrayed in a subtle manner" I don't think there's much left to argue about.
Tony killing his nephew? Tony constantly killing people for that matter, every season the constant theme of Tony having a false epiphany and then doing something idiotic/ horrific to further emphasise that he is sociopath who will never change?

All the characters in the Sopranos are one dimensional, you say there is a "deepness" to them, but what is that based on? None of them develop or change, they are essential the same characters for the entire show. The only character with any depth whatsoever is Chris, and eventually they manage to snuff any nuance out of his character by transforming him into someone who is exactly the same as Tony. I understand that this is the point of the Sopranos, but it is in no way "deep".

In Breaking Bad, within just one season, you see a change in pretty much all the characters based on what they are experiencing in the show. The change in their personalities is justified and subtle. Jesse doesn't just suddenly became a cold, heartless bastard. It takes 4 seasons of constant failure and tragedy for him to turn into the character which he becomes. Walt, Skyler, Hank all change significantly according to their experiences.

In the Sopranos, all the characters are impervious to the events which the show placers around them. It happens constantly with Tony. An event will take place which maybe changes his attitude for a couple of episodes, but once there is any pressure from another source, he is instantly transformed into his old sociopathic self. Throughout the course of the Sopranos, with all the shit that happens to Tony, and all the psychotherapy he goes through, his character barely changes from the first episode.

And no, you don't understand craft and subtlety in creating a TV show if you think surreal incidents like the ones you referred to render BB less subtle than the Sopranos. Each character in the Sopranos has a specific trait and personality which never changes and is reaffirmed incessantly to ram home a message. That is not subtlety. This kind of simplicity never occurs in BB, you can rarely predict the trajectory of a character throughout a season.
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Old 10-14-2011, 11:41 PM   #351
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Here's his reason for Gus walking out of the room, could have been done better though i think:


"From a practical standpoint—and I learned this from previous experience and previous seasons of Breaking Bad—it seemed to me that I’d better make this death as concrete as possible for the audience. Otherwise, there would be a large portion who couldn’t get their minds around it, who wouldn’t quite believe it if they didn’t see it with their own eyes. In other words, even if you saw the explosion and then you saw some pile of unrecognizable bodies afterward, there’d be folks who would never believe that Gus had been there, that he escaped at the last second and he’d be back next season. I kinda wanted to take that off the table. I’m tickled by that desire on the part of the audience to not believe what they see, because I think it comes from a very good place. I think it comes, in this case, from a desire that Gus Fring stay a part of the show. If, in other words, folks said, “We didn’t see him get blown up, so maybe he’s going to come back next year,” I think that’s a very positive desire or fantasy or wishful thinking on the part of the viewer, because they love the character so much. Having said that, I wanted to make it crystal clear that he had not survived."
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Old 10-15-2011, 07:36 AM   #352
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Tony killing his nephew? Tony constantly killing people for that matter, every season the constant theme of Tony having a false epiphany and then doing something idiotic/ horrific to further emphasise that he is sociopath who will never change?

All the characters in the Sopranos are one dimensional, you say there is a "deepness" to them, but what is that based on? None of them develop or change, they are essential the same characters for the entire show. The only character with any depth whatsoever is Chris, and eventually they manage to snuff any nuance out of his character by transforming him into someone who is exactly the same as Tony. I understand that this is the point of the Sopranos, but it is in no way "deep".

In Breaking Bad, within just one season, you see a change in pretty much all the characters based on what they are experiencing in the show. The change in their personalities is justified and subtle. Jesse doesn't just suddenly became a cold, heartless bastard. It takes 4 seasons of constant failure and tragedy for him to turn into the character which he becomes. Walt, Skyler, Hank all change significantly according to their experiences.

In the Sopranos, all the characters are impervious to the events which the show placers around them. It happens constantly with Tony. An event will take place which maybe changes his attitude for a couple of episodes, but once there is any pressure from another source, he is instantly transformed into his old sociopathic self. Throughout the course of the Sopranos, with all the shit that happens to Tony, and all the psychotherapy he goes through, his character barely changes from the first episode.

And no, you don't understand craft and subtlety in creating a TV show if you think surreal incidents like the ones you referred to render BB less subtle than the Sopranos. Each character in the Sopranos has a specific trait and personality which never changes and is reaffirmed incessantly to ram home a message. That is not subtlety. This kind of simplicity never occurs in BB, you can rarely predict the trajectory of a character throughout a season.
Now I'm wondering if you understood what the Sopranos was all about. The motto of the show is that people don't change. Pretending that some day things are going to be all rainbows and sunshine is the way most people waste their entire adult lives.

I find that BB is trying to be an answer, an echo, a continuation of some of the themes that the Sopranos introduced about human nature. One of the major themes of BB is "embrace who you are". Because you can't change it. All you can do is flail vainly against it.

Or you accept it. Even if it means accepting that you are the bad guy.

Tony Sopranos arc throughout the series is exactly that. In the end, he accepts who he is, and stops feeling guilty about being the bad guy. There is character development though, but the characters on the Sopranos aren't in a constant state of puberty.

I still think choosing the word 'subtle' was correct. English isn't my first language so I might have chosen a more accurate word if it was. The whole 747 down over ABQ thing was bizarre and by no means a subtle way of saying 'actions have consequences'. If Tony Soprano whacked the daughter of an air traffic controller and by proxy caused a plane to crash over Newark everyone would say Sopranos jumped the shark. Yet, if something similar happens on Breaking Bad it's acceptable.

I know you can't compare it like that, but I'm saying it to make clear how ridiculous that event is if you take it out of the context of Breaking Bad. But even in context of the show, it feels off. Over the top.


@ Dicky

Yeah if you read the interviews with David Chase you can see exactly how much thought was put into everything. And after watching all episodes of the first 5 seasons at least 2 times, some even more, I can see new layers showing exactly how well it was written.
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Old 10-16-2011, 11:58 AM   #353
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I know, I'm going to rewatch the whole series this winter. Its been a while and I only catch reruns here and there on A&E but they are edited.

I wanna catch all the little things I missed.



But the fact that Tony does not fully change to me, shows the realism of the show and the degenerative nature of most people.


HOw many times to people we know in our own lives suffer something tramatic, vow to change, do indeed change for a short period, but than run back to their own ways, much worse in alot of cases.

And since we are dealing with mobsters, it makes more sense, than them changing.
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Old 10-18-2011, 06:03 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by Chevy Chase View Post
Now I'm wondering if you understood what the Sopranos was all about. The motto of the show is that people don't change. Pretending that some day things are going to be all rainbows and sunshine is the way most people waste their entire adult lives.

I find that BB is trying to be an answer, an echo, a continuation of some of the themes that the Sopranos introduced about human nature. One of the major themes of BB is "embrace who you are". Because you can't change it. All you can do is flail vainly against it.

Or you accept it. Even if it means accepting that you are the bad guy.

Tony Sopranos arc throughout the series is exactly that. In the end, he accepts who he is, and stops feeling guilty about being the bad guy. There is character development though, but the characters on the Sopranos aren't in a constant state of puberty.

I still think choosing the word 'subtle' was correct. English isn't my first language so I might have chosen a more accurate word if it was. The whole 747 down over ABQ thing was bizarre and by no means a subtle way of saying 'actions have consequences'. If Tony Soprano whacked the daughter of an air traffic controller and by proxy caused a plane to crash over Newark everyone would say Sopranos jumped the shark. Yet, if something similar happens on Breaking Bad it's acceptable.

I know you can't compare it like that, but I'm saying it to make clear how ridiculous that event is if you take it out of the context of Breaking Bad. But even in context of the show, it feels off. Over the top.


@ Dicky

Yeah if you read the interviews with David Chase you can see exactly how much thought was put into everything. And after watching all episodes of the first 5 seasons at least 2 times, some even more, I can see new layers showing exactly how well it was written.
I thought i made it pretty clear that i understand that the message of the Sopranos is that people don't change. If someone watches all 6 seasons and doesn't get this message (as it's reiterated hundreds of times) they need their head examined. This is why i find the Sopranos unsubtle, the way the story and themes are executed not whether they are realistic or not.

I do remember watching that season and thinking it was indeed ridiculous how that chain of events unfolded, but it doesn't mar the show for me in the same way that it does for you i guess. I don't watch TV shows as documentaries. Some events in Breaking Bad as vastly implausible, but they are none the less possible. I mean, the whole premise of the show is quite ridiculous, yet plausible, and i think you need to suspend disbelief from the get go with BB.

We both obviously enjoy both shows so not much point in arguing about our different opinions on them. My enjoyment of the Sopranos was probably diminished by watching every season in quick succession and finding some of the characters amazingly annoying (Janice and Tony's mother). And with Breaking Bad i haven't re watched any of it and i seen it over a longer period of time.

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Old 10-18-2011, 06:05 AM   #355
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And to add, i don't think i'd like to see 6 seasons of Breaking Bad either.
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Old 10-19-2011, 05:00 PM   #356
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All series eventually hit bump...when the actors almost overplay their own characters. It probably happens less in dramatic shows, but I've noticed alot in comedies. Seinfeld was a good example of this.

I'm not sure if its the actors fault, or the writers. Probably its almost fully falls on the writer.
Or its possible that the viewer's own perception of the character changes as time goes on. They get sick of the character once everything is revealed about them.
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Old 10-24-2011, 12:25 AM   #357
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It's funny that Walt is a great chemist, but the chemistry in his relationships is horrible.
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Old 10-24-2011, 03:06 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by DickyTouch View Post
All series eventually hit bump...when the actors almost overplay their own characters. It probably happens less in dramatic shows, but I've noticed alot in comedies. Seinfeld was a good example of this.

I'm not sure if its the actors fault, or the writers. Probably its almost fully falls on the writer.
Or its possible that the viewer's own perception of the character changes as time goes on. They get sick of the character once everything is revealed about them.
Yeah, i guess with Seinfeld the show went for so long it was inevitable. The nature of the show kind of changed also, in the last couple of seasons it become more and more ridiculous. I still enjoy those later seasons, but the show is noticeably different.
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Old 10-24-2011, 07:24 PM   #359
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it became much more slapstick later, but that was mainly the result of Larry David leaving the show as a writer.

They were still great, but the earlier ones were genius.
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Old 11-01-2011, 01:10 PM   #360
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djskillz Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)djskillz Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)djskillz Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)djskillz Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)djskillz Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)djskillz Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)djskillz Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)djskillz Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)djskillz Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)djskillz Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)djskillz Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)
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just finished watching and all i could say was "holy fuck." the last two-three episodes had me on edge the whole time. heart racing like a motherfucker.
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