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Old 06-10-2008, 11:33 PM   #76
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the history of china is also one of imperialistic conquest and the country is named China because out of several warring kingdoms, the emperor of Chin, Chin Sua Wa Di (sp?) conquered and united them into an empire in his likeness Chin'a or China.

They then proceeded to take over everyone around them regardless of language religion and so forth.

in the Ming Era they took boat rides around the world demanding tribute from 'barbarians'

they currently use repressive brute force to control territory that isn't chinese by history culture of ethnicity such as the majority of mongola (the country you look at on the map is outer mongolia, Inner mongolia is in china), tibet, and all the western ones in the Gobi desert and beyond.


they out populate all these ppl, but they also out populate any other ppl,

i think you've realised this as it is BEYOND common knowledge and are just arguing cause your afraid of 'losing' to TSA.


quit embarassing yourself
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Old 06-10-2008, 11:35 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alijannu View Post
there is not less light but More longer seasons of brightness compared to long seasons of darkness


which obvisously fucks with melatonin flow, therefor affecting everyone regardless of how much they have melanin.



midnight


do u also know about the fact a lighter skin can produce vitamin D faster than dark skin? that should balance things out a lot right? and yea i know sunlight is also most harmful to light skin. but also the sunlight is not as strong in north.

^correct.

white ppl turned white cause its what makes sense in their environment and black ppl stayed black cause it's what makes sense in their environment.

even nordic dogs have blue eyes(a sign on low melanin).

it's not cause they're made during Yacub's 5th period woodshop class, but cause they, like all ppl, adapted to where they're at.
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Old 06-11-2008, 12:06 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alijannu View Post
there is not less light but More longer seasons of brightness compared to long seasons of darkness


which obvisously fucks with melatonin flow, therefor affecting everyone regardless of how much they have melanin.



midnight


do u also know about the fact a lighter skin can produce vitamin D faster than dark skin? that should balance things out a lot right? and yea i know sunlight is also most harmful to light skin. but also the sunlight is not as strong in north.
I truly believe the sunlight thing has more to do with UV light then anything.
Being indoors too much might affect your daily required dosage.

As for your observation of thier being as much sunlight int he north. No.

The sun hits different parts of the world with angled streams and not direct streams of light. Shorter days as well.

They could learn something about human evolution with trees that grow in different parts of the world i assume.
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Old 06-11-2008, 01:02 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V4D3R View Post
I truly believe the sunlight thing has more to do with UV light then anything.
Being indoors too much might affect your daily required dosage.

As for your observation of thier being as much sunlight int he north. No.

The sun hits different parts of the world with angled streams and not direct streams of light. Shorter days as well.

They could learn something about human evolution with trees that grow in different parts of the world i assume.

Ure from states right?

I live way more north than any of the American States are...

In north europe.

...The pic shows exactly how the midsummer midnights look here. Some nights are even more brighter.


But yeah im not saying theres nothing else to it

just saying that theres unique things to light skin.


"The sun hits different parts of the world with angled streams and not direct streams of light. Shorter days as well."

True true. Shorter days during winter. really short, u cant allmost regonize night from day here during winter lol
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Old 06-11-2008, 01:10 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alijannu View Post
do u also know about the fact a lighter skin can produce vitamin D faster than dark skin? that should balance things out a lot right? and yea i know sunlight is also most harmful to light skin. but also the sunlight is not as strong in north.
true.
this is because lower uv radiation levels require more radiation to be absorbed. dairy products also supplement vitamin D.

how long does it take for a person with dark skin to convert to light skin due to lack of exposure?

black africans have been living in europe for 1000s of years and are still dark.


but melanin isn't all about skin color.


does the need for vitamin D outweigh the need for serotonin and melatonin?

is this trade off a logical or beneficial mutation when a change in diet would be sufficient?
especially when you factor in the "odd" daily cycles of day/night, knowing that serotonin and melatonin regulate natural cycles.




TSA we have moved on from your frivolity, you figure out why what you tried to prove is wrong.

hint: figure out what makes a person chinese then research the econ gains that the various nations contribute to the sino-american system you invented.






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Old 06-11-2008, 01:19 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alijannu View Post
Ure from states right?

I live way more north than any of the American States are...

In north europe.

...The pic shows exactly how the midsummer midnights look here. Some nights are even more brighter.
I live in winterland. The Great White North. Canada.
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Old 06-11-2008, 02:19 AM   #82
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3. The Pineal Gland
Quote:
The Pineal Gland -also called the epiphysis- looks like a miniature pine cone and is situated in the middle of the brain beneath the two brain halves, surrounded by the ventricles, under the roof of the corpus callosum (cross-beam connecting the 2 brain halves). (see picture) This active organ has, together with the Pituitary Gland (see picture), the next highest blood circulation after the kidneys. It is not protected by the blood-brain barrier and therefore makes this gland fragile to any substance entering the bloodstream. It is, for instance, very sensitive to fluoride.

Another factor involved in affecting the Pineal Gland can be excessive high or even toxic levels of an SSRI-AntiDepressant in the bloodstream. Certain individuals have a metabolic deficiency in the metabolism of anti-depressant medication. In the liver, a group of enzymes named " cytochrome P-450" enzymes, particularly the "CYP2D6 enzymes" of this group of enzymes, metabolise SSRI-AntiDepressants. When not properly metabolised, because one has a metabolic deficiency, a daily therapeutic dose can build up to excessive high or even toxic levels in the bloodstream. Hence, the Pineal Gland would be an easy target, since it is not very well protected by the blood-brain barrier. It is it's connection to serotonin what makes this organ so very interesting.

3.a. The Pineal Gland-Serotonin connection
Nicholas Giarmin, a professor of pharmacology and Daniel Freedman, a professor of psychiatry, confirmed that the human brain manufactures serotonin at various sites in the brain. For example, in the Thalamus, they discovered 61 nanograms of serotonin per gram of tissue; in the Hippocampus, 56 ng.; in the Central Gray Section of the Midbrain, they found 482 ng. But in the Pineal Gland, they found 3140 ng. of serotonin per gram of tissue. The Pineal Gland was unmistakably the richest site of serotonin in the brain! This discovery implicates the Pineal Gland as an important site of serotonergic activity.

The neurohormone Melatonin & the Endocrine System
One of the neurotransmitters secreted by the Pineal Gland is Melatonin, also known as N-Acetyl-5-Methoxy-Tryptamine (NA-5-MT). In the Pineal Gland, serotonin converts into melatonin by enzymatic interaction. Melatonin is also an important hormone to the body, that's why it is called a neurohormone. It is necessary to regulate the function of all organs of the Endocrine System in the body. The organs or glands of the endocrine system are: the Pituitary Gland, situated in the brain; the Thyroid + Parathyroid Glands; the Thymus; the Pancreas; the Ovaries/Testes (see image). All of these endocrine organs/glands secrete their hormones to the blood. The Pituitary Gland stimulates the secretion of these hormones, while the Pineal Gland apply the brakes on them through it's neurohormone melatonin. If the endocrine organs/glands release too much of their hormones, for instance when we are stressed, then the Pineal Gland releases melatonin to counteract these hormones. Also serotonin gets released when stress is involved. The increased serotonin triggers the release of adrenaline, which allows the body to work through the stress.

The Pineal Gland is a magneto sensitive organ, what means that it is sensitive to electromagnetic fields (EMF). It is sensitive to electromagnetic waves from computer monitors, cellular phones, microwave ovens, high voltage lines, etc.. Electromagnetic fields suppress the activity of the Pineal Gland and reduce melatonin production. EMF also affect serotonin.

The neurohormone Melatonin & the Eye-SCN-Pineal Gland Axis
The Pineal Gland is also a photosensitive organ, what means that it is sensitive to light. It normally releases melatonin when it no longer receives light impulses. Just like serotonin, also melatonin has it's own day & night cycle (circadian rhythm) which begins where the cycle of serotonin normally ends. When serotonin reaches it's lowest level at night (in the dark) during slow wave sleep, the Pineal Gland starts to convert it's store of serotonin into melatonin to be released prior to REM sleep. Melatonin has it's peak around 02:00 AM. During daytime, the daylight inhibits the release of melatonin. This works as follows: when, during daytime, light reaches the eyes, then it's presence gets translated into nerve impulses, which travel through the optic nerve between the eyes and a region of the Hypothalamus called the "Suprachiasmatic Nucleus" (SCN). (see picture) The SCN in it's turn sends it's nerve impulses to the Pineal Gland. These impulses inhibit the Pineal Gland's production of melatonin until it gets dark, when it's to be released again.
Melatonin is not only present in the brain and body but also in the eye! One has speculated whether or not high melatonin levels in the eyes during daylight exposure, may bring damage to them over time. Visual/eye problems (light sensitivity, spots, blurred vision) are other symptoms, frequently reported by (former) SSRI-AntiDepressant users. I questioned myself if these problems could be related to elevated melatonin levels in the eye. When serotonin accumulates in the Pineal Gland, on account of an SSRI-AntiDepressant, then it would come under pressure to produce more melatonin out of the excessive amounts of serotonin. Hence, during daytime, melatonin levels in the eyes would be significantly higher then normally would occur... But, I had to revise this hypothesis. In a PubMed study, SSRI-AntiDepressants were found not to elevate melatonin levels in humans. Although "Luvox" and "Paxil" increases melatonin to a more or lesser amount, apparently this seemed not to be the case for the other SSRI-AntiDepressants. However, since the Pineal Gland does contain a complete map of the visual field of the eyes, could there be a correlation between visual/eye problems and a dysfunctional Pineal Gland?

A case, noted by Dr. Berman, could give us some more insight into this matter:

A child was brought to a German clinic suffering from eye trouble and headaches. He was five years old and very mature, and apparently had reached the age of adolescence. He was abnormally bright mentally, discussing metaphysical and spiritual subjects. He was strongly group-conscious and only happy when sharing what he had with others. After his arrival at the clinic, he rapidly grew worse and died in a month. An autopsy showed a tumour of the pineal gland. - Berman, Louis, M.D., The Glands Regulating Personality, p. 89.
Could it be that the visual/eye problems (light sensitivity, spots, blurred vision), frequently reported by (former) SSRI-AntiDepressant users, are caused by some element of Pineal Gland dysfunction?
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Old 06-11-2008, 02:26 AM   #83
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They are really fucking with us man - on every fucking despicable level.
They know what flouride is doing to us - and microwaves.

Fuck fuck fuck this means war.
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Old 06-11-2008, 03:14 AM   #84
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Another hilarious read brought to you by internet scholars.
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Old 06-11-2008, 03:27 AM   #85
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hooray

my non confrontational, generally easy going post was completely ignored.

styles, you are pretty much a 5%er in philosophical terms.

its just interesting to me, that you oppose others so much, and then come up with this...
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Old 06-11-2008, 03:29 AM   #86
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Stylemaster in inhumanely dim.

what the fuck is sino-american economic system?

cheap toys?

you said every nation can't follow the american system of "stepping on other ppls toes" to get what they want.

i said, every nation steps on peoples toes to get that why want

you said china didn't, it's isolationist

i said china did, as the country China, is han china, or essential the Chin section of han china, taking over everyone around it.

since korea, mongolia, vietnam, tibet and various other locations have a history of chinese imperialism, i really don't see how difficult it is to sink the one in.

those ppl you mentioned, are, indeed, chinese, not because they're ethnically chinese, but cause they're members of a chinese nation build on the kingdom of Chin, taking over it's neighbors and making them chinese, which would equalify as being a toe stepper on'er

the system of dicking your way to the top is not an american invention, and you, again, can't find a country that didn't dick its way to the top.

again, not difficult to sink in, i'd find examples if i were you because the next conversation in line after this one is how toothpaste n microwaves are killing the black community's melanin(soul).
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Old 06-11-2008, 03:29 AM   #87
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^^Scientific blogs by brain scientists are hilarious to you?

I can honestly say man that I felt what u do because at first I was looking at a lot of this as a bunch of bullshit. Basically I looked at it like black propaganda to uplift people in dire state.

But now the facts are in. More to come...
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Old 06-11-2008, 03:31 AM   #88
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Melanin Pigments in Human Pineal Gland

Author(s): Koshy, S. & Vettivel, S.

Vol. 50, No. 2 (2001-07 - 2001-12)

Department of Anatomy, Christian Medical College, Vellore, India
Abstract

Masson-Fontana staining confirmed the presence of melanin pigments in the human adult pineal gland. In 1-10 years age group, the pigments were present within the pinealocytes. In 11-20 years age group also, the pigments were in the pinealocytes only. In 21-30 year age group, the pigments were in the pinealocytes and appeared in the stroma in the areas of glial fibre predominance. In 31-40 years age group onwards, the pigments were present, in addition to pinealocytes, in the stroma among the fibres. As age advanced, the amount of extracellular pigments gradually increased, extracellular pigments were more concentrated, and the extracellular pigments were more clearly seen. There was no gender difference in the amount of melanin pigments. The background comparative anatomy also is discussed.
Key words: melanocyte, melanin, pinealocytes, pineal gland
Introduction:

Melanocytes are melanin-pigment synthesizing pigment cells derived from neural crest and widely distributed in vertebrates. They are stellate cells with long processes with numerous dark brown or black granules of melanin in their cytoplasm. There function is generally, to prevent light from reaching adjacent cells. In humans, they are present in the epidermis and its appendages, oral epithelium, some mucous membranes, uveal tract of eye ball, parts of middle and internal ear, and parts of leptomeninges in the base of brain. The cells of retinal pigment epithelium, neurons in locus ceruleus and substantia nigra also synthesize melanin. Melanins are high molecular weight polymers, attached to a structural protein, to form melanoproteins, and in the humans, there are two classes, the brown-black eumelanin and red-yellow pheomelanin, both derived from a substrate tyrosine (Dyson 1995).
Pineal gland (epiphysis cerebri) was once considered to be a phylogenic relic, a vestige of a dorsal third eye, and of little functional significance; the mammalian pineal is now regarded and accepted as an endocrine gland of major regulatory importance, modifying the activity of the adenohypophysis, neurohypophysis, endocrine pancreas, parathyroids, adrenal cortex, adrenal medulla, and gonads. (de Vries and Kappers 1971; Klein 1978; Haulica and Coeulescu 1981; Reiter 1983, 1985, 1987; Malendowicz 1985; Dyson 1995).
The pineal in the big brown bat is pigmented and intensified with constant darkness (Bhatnagar and Hilton 1994). Pigmented cells in the cat pineal gland show a preferential localization at the ventral surface of the pineal gland near its distal end and the pineal pigment is melanin (Calvo et al. 1992). Presence of pigment cells is a constant characteristic in the adult dog pineal gland; the pigment is melanin (Calvo et al. 1988). Embryo ovine pineal gland has pigment cells containing melanin (Regodon et al. 1998). Pineal glands of neonates consist of cords of dark, nucleated cells, which are frequently pigmented (Min et al. 1987). In the human adult, melanin pigments gradually accumulate within the parenchymal cells with increasing age in males, whereas in females, the maximum pigmentation is noticed in 30-40 year age group and then there was a fall (Tapp and Huxley 1972). The present study was done to find whether or not the human adult pineal gland showed gender difference and age changes in the amount of melanin pigments.
Materials and Methods:

Forty pineal glands were collected from South Indian subjects (31 males and 9 females) who were accident deads, within five to six hours after death during autopsy. There were no histological postmortem changes. Age of the subjects ranged from one to eighty years. Age groups of the subjects were 1-10, 11-20, 21-30, 31-40, 41-50, 5160, 61-70, 71-80 years.
Pineal glands were removed from the brain along with the superior colliculus so that the pineal recess of the third ventricle was also included. These were put in Bouin's fluid. After fixation, the specimens were processed for light microscopy. Eight-micron serial sections were cut and stained. Staining methods used were (i) haematoxylin and eosin, (ii) Masson-Fontana method for melanin, and (iii) Mallory's phosphotungstic acid haematoxylin method for neuroglial cells and nerve fibres. The arrangement of the parenchyma and stroma was observed. Melanin pigments were visually studied for location and quantity with regard to gender and age.
Observations:

Pineal gland had a well defined capsule (piamater) and septa extended from the capsule into the parenchyma dividing it into complete and incomplete lobules. Parenchyma consisted of light and dark pinealocytes and glial cells. Corpora arenacea were a constant feature (Koshy and Vettivel 2001). Melanin pigments were present in the pinealocytes and in the stroma. In 1-10 years age group, the parenchyma was highly cellular, predominantly of pinealocytes. Within the pinealocytes, melanin pigments were present. There were no extra cellular pigments. In 11-20 years age group, the parenchyma was highly cellular with the presence of pinealocytes. Pigments were present as in 1-10 year group, within the pinealocytes. In 21-30 years age group, abundant dark melanin pigments were inside the pinealocytes and in the areas of glial fibre predominance. The pinealocytes were not abundant as in 11-20 age group but extracellular pigments were in the transition areas from pinealocytes-predominance to glial fibre-predominance (Fig. 1). In pineal glands of higher age groups, 31-40, 41-50, 51-60, 61-70 years, melanin pigments were seen as clear granules, more among the fibres. The pinealocytes also had melanin pigments within them. The extra cellular pigments were more clearly seen as age advanced. There was no gender difference in the amount of melanin pigments. A gradual increase in melanin, more concentrated extracellularly, occured as age advanced.
Discussion:

Pineal gland projects from the roof of diencephalon. A recess of third ventricle extends into its stalk. The pineal was formerly considered a vestigial organ with no function but now it is known to be an active endocrine gland. Its activity is influenced by the daily cycle of light and dark and it is a link between environment and physiology of an organism (individual). It responds to annual changes in day-length and influences gonadal activity in seasonal breading species but has, though less apparent, significant effect on the reproductive system of other species that breed throughout the year. Its innervation is exclusively via sympathetic fibres that originate in the superior cervical ganglion and enter the cranial cavity accompanying blood vessels supplying the brain (Fawcet 1994).
Paired eyes of vertebrates are organs to focus a clear image upon a film of sensory cells known as retina, and these cells convey the impulses to the brain, giving their interpretation of intensity, colour, or movements. In some primitive vertebrates, there are also two different median organs, which serve as receptors for light, although not necessarily to obtain visual images. There are indications, from elasmobranch embryology, that the prevertebrates possess a metameric series of paired visual organs on the roof of the head; most of them rapidly disappear as the lateral eyes become perfect; but two pairs of dorsal eyes still hang on, almost to the cyclostome level. In lamprey, one member of each of these supposed pairs might be seen as a small bulb, attached by a stalk, to the root of the diencephalon. The anterior one (parietal stalk) does not quite reach, but the posterior (pineal eye) does reach a semitransparent spot in the skin of the head. Possibly, both bodies were present in primitive amphibian, for in frogs, the pineal is found, nearly reaching the skin; yet in some modern reptiles (sphenodon and lizards) a parietal eye is present, with the pineal redued. Among early vertebrates, the evidence of these organs is simply a foramen in the roof of the skull in ostracoderms, some placoderms, crossopterygians, primitive amphibians, and some of the early reptiles, including Therapsids. It usually lies between the parietal bones. The parietal eye of the Sphenodon is well covered, and no function has been demonstrated, but it contains a retina and a lens; the neurosensory retinal cells synapse with neurons, which go directly down the stalk. In birds, the pineal stalk is reduced but often distinct and with a complicated structure distally. Mammals have a minute epiphysis (pineal organ), which has been suspected to have an endocrine function (Eaton 1960).
In most fish, and amphibians, the pineal organ is a single sac. In the more primitive fish, tail-less amphibians and lizards, there is a second component, the parapineal organ or parietal organ, which arises as an anterior evagination of the pineal organ or as a separate outgrowth of the roof of diencephalon. In frogs, parapineal component lies just beneath the epidermis on the dorsum of the head, where it can be seen. Numerous nerves and nerve endings are found in the pineal organs of lower vertebrates. Pineal organs of lower vertebrates reveal presence of photoreceptor cells that resemble those of the mammalian retina in having a lamellar portion of the apex and a receptor synapse at the base. The most elaborate pineal is found in the primitive lizard, Sphenodon. It contains a simple retina, consisting of photoreceptors backed by supporting cells that contain pigment, and its parietal component includes a lens-like structure. It thus constitutes a vestigial parietal eye. Probably, the parietal eye of the Sphenodon was functional because of the large size of the pineal foramen in the fossil reptiles (Fawcett 1994).
Pineal gland contains cords and follicles of pinealocytes and neuroglial cells among which ramify blood vessels and nerves. Pinealocytes form the pineal parenchyma; neuroglial cells, partially separating the pinealocytes, are like astrocytes. Ultrastructure of human fetal pinealocytes indicates their secretory function in early intrauterine life (Moller 1974). As in adults, they contain all the appropriate organelles together with abundant microfilaments, microtubules, and a few cilia with a 9 + 0 microtubular pattern. Cilia of this type are associated with secretory cells in other endocrine glands (Barnes 1961; Andersen et al. 1970). Extending from the cell body are one or more processes (Knight et al 1973), which end in terminal buds near blood vessels or ependymal cells of the pineal recess. The terminal buds contain electron dense cored vesicles, which store monoamines and polypeptide hormones (Sheridan and Sladek 1975), release of which requires sympathetic innervation. The polypeptide hormones combine with specific protein carriers, termed neuro-epiphysins (Lukaszyk and Reiter 1975). They are released by exocytosis together with exocytotic debris. When released, the complex dissociates, hormones being exchanged for calcium ions. The calcium-carrier complex so formed is, in the pineal, deposited concentrically around exocytotic debris as corpora arenacea or brain sand. It is often supposed that the pineal gland atrophies with age, corpora arenacea being a sign of atrophy; on the contrary, these corpuscles may indicate continued secretion. There was no evidence of pineal degeneration in the elderly (Wildi and Frauchiger 1965).
The pinealocytes of mammals evolved from the photoreceptor cells of the pineal organ of primitive vertebrates. In the course of their evolution from light sensitive elements to endocrine cells, the region of the cell, specialised for photoreception was lost, together with the sensory nerves connecting it to other regions of the brain. The synaptic ribbons of mammalian pinealocytes may be vestiges of the special synapses that are characteristic of photoreceptors. Whether they have acquired an alternate function, related to secretion, is not known (Fawcett 1994). Pinealocytes of some mammals contain synaptic ribbons, perhaps involved in transmission; vesicles near them contain neurotransmitters such as - aminobutyric acid (Krstic 1976). Similar arrangements of organelles occur in mammalian retinal photoreceptors and simpler submammalian photoreceptors, suggesting that mammalian pinealocytes are derived from photoreceptors (Kappers 1976; Relkin 1976). Transient similarities exist between pinealocytes and retinal photoreceptors in neonatal rats (Zimmerman and Tsi 1975).
Melanin pigments are associated with light and are found in association with photoreceptors. This association, probably, exists with photoreceptor cells-derived pinealocytes also. It is possible that the pigments, corresponding to those (rodopsin) in photoreceptors and those in the supporting cells in Sphenodon pineal gland, are in the pinealocytes and stroma in the human pineal gland. Increase of melanin pigments is due to the action of pineal indole-melatonin. Melatonin suppresses the melanocyte-stimulating hormone and prevents dispersion of melanin granules. Therefore, the melanin pigments become concentrated in the pineal gland.
The sphenodon pineal has pigments in the supporting cells of the photoreceptors. Mammalian retina has pigment cell layer. Melanin pigments have been shown to be present in animal and human fetal pinealocytes. Correspondingly, the present study, light microscopically, has shown melanin pigments in the human adults. Melanin pigments gradually accumulate within the parenchymal cells with increasing age in males, whereas in females, the maximum pigmentation is noticed in 30-40 year age group and then there is a fall (Tapp and Huxley 1972). The present study shows that there is no gender difference in the amount of melanin pigments, that a gradual increase in melanin pigments, more concentrated extra cellularly, occurs and that melanin pigments are more clearly seen as age advances.
Acknowledgement:

The help of Dr. Valsamma Mathew, Department of Anatomy and Dr. Radha Krishnan, Department of Forensic Medicine of Kottayam Medical College, Kottayam is acknowledged.
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Old 06-11-2008, 03:34 AM   #89
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it is propaganda

i won't say black propaganda cause the only black ppl the buy this shit are Stylemaster, Poppa Wu, Sunnywinters and his secondaries.

it's a disgusting field of thought, to become what you hate in white supremacist culture, meaning your striving to be the lowest example of socialization your 'enemy' has to offer.

it all comes from self hate and self-esteem voids and will do nothing but cause it's suscribers to live in a world of hate and frustration that will eat their insides and lead them to believe the world outside of their illusion is forever hopeless.

a sad way to die.
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Old 06-11-2008, 03:37 AM   #90
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YAY! articles that I myself could have written and called scientific fact and nobody, including the poster will ever read!

why commity suicide when you have green font!?
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