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Old 05-11-2009, 11:24 AM   #1
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Default "Beatmaking" in hip hop has stagnated and hit a brick wall

Producing in hip hop hasnt progressed at any level (from real underground-to fake underground-to-hardcore/street to- backpack-to commercial) over the last 10 years.

It all just sounds like people dont know what they should be doing now to make it interesting. They all seem to be working off the one same "formula" for making a "hip hop beat".

I think theyre all just thinking about it too much. Trying to hard to make a hip hop beat, and sticking too much to formulas. Again im talking about alll levels of rap music. Rappers now care too much about getting the "cool" beats right on there albums. They care more about getting a big name producer giving them a beat than they care about actually making a good song/album. They think all they have to do is get a cool beat and rap over it and there you go: heres some hip hop .

It doesnt work like that. And thats lazy.


At the other end of the scale, away from the stupid "super-producer" era we live in now, is the underground or hardcore or street producers. They are failing also.

My belief as why is because of what i'd call Dilution. I dont think theres as many true muscians actually making hip hop because they are generally good at music. Theyve been crowded out by your average punk whos handy with computers and who have lots of money to waste on equipment. But they dont have a musical bone in their body. But they are able to make "hip hop beats" that stand up in todays watered down market, and seen as acceptable.

Its seems to me now, that anybody is able to make a "hip hop beat". You dont have to be a talented musician, or even knowledgble about lots of genre of Music generally, you just need to know the beats-by-numbers procedure of making hip hop music. Im not just talking about the myspace/soundclick producers out there, im talking about most producers who get songs on released albums, albums that usually sell in the 5k-30k region.


IMO, the guys who were making hip hop from the 80's thru to the mid 90's were talented musicians who just happened to be alive when rap music was sweeping thru their hoods, so they lent their talent to hip hop music. If it had been Jazz, Blues, Soul whatever as the popular thing, im sure alot of those guys wouldve been very good at that, too. But it wasnt what was in then.

And then you had the DJ's. DJ's like Premier who moved into beign great producers on the back of the immense year after year knowledge he had learnt from many many musical styles and years and years of record collecting and listening to many many different songs, that had nothing to do with hip hop, from Rock to Jazz to Funk. Premier knows ALOT about music, i read one interview with him where he was reeling off Jewelz about all types of music genres most people didnt even know he was a fan of, let alone super knowledgable about it.

These are the guys who are sorely missing in todays hip hop. Guys that didnt grow up with Hip Hop as their #1 musical influence. Guys that were making hip hop based off of other musical genres. But these days your average fruity loop goon is basing all his beat makign knowledge purely just on hip hop. He probably doesnt even know about other genres of music at all.

It would be too simplistic to call it the 9th Wonder/Madlib paradox. But its a easy comparison of one guy who is clearly making hip hop beats based upon previous hip hop beats (and who happens to use purely computers to make beats), and another guy who is making hip hop beats based upon his knowledge of music. (who happens to use real life hardware and keyboards and all types of shit to make beats).

I wonder whose music will stand the test of time?
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Old 05-11-2009, 11:28 AM   #2
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about time someone spoke on this...props on this,real points
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Old 05-11-2009, 11:31 AM   #3
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nice read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GHOSTLACED View Post
They care more about getting a big name producer giving them a beat than they care about actually making a good song/album. They think all they have to do is get a cool beat and rap over it and there you go: heres some hip hop .
well said.
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Old 05-11-2009, 11:31 AM   #4
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Eh, yeah pretty much agree with your post 100%

While there probably are a few good producers out there, theres a lot who just want to make a hot beat coz it will catapault them to fame, but theres no longevity or consistancy in just making 'hot beats'.

I liked the point you made about musicians, thats 100% true imo, hip-hop was BUILT sampling other forms of music, and all the producers back in the day were fans of other froms of music and brought their experience and knowledge to hip-hop, so i really dont think you can be a good hip-hop producer if you dont know what else is out there and listen to other types of music.
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Old 05-11-2009, 11:34 AM   #5
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synth beats and sample clearance problems are killing the production game also.
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Old 05-11-2009, 11:37 AM   #6
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5-star thread.. shit is basically stagnated at the MO.
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Old 05-11-2009, 11:42 AM   #7
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I think also the fact that anybody, and i mean anybody, is now able to put together an "acceptable" hip hop beat, shows us how low we have let the music go. Its all gotten too easy to do. Theres replicators everywhere.

I dont know when or how it shifted from a sound only a few could do and were allowed to do, to a sound that could easily be copied. Is it down to the sampling laws? Idk. There was hip hop from back then that was cool that didnt use samples either (away from east coast). UGK were using live instruments from the start and making dope shit with that. Bone thugs didnt have many samples on their first 2 records, but DJ U Neek made them beats sick as fuck. And like Aquemini and ATLiens, those arent albums full of sampels or relying on samples to make the music, but they still pulled it off and made classic. Because theyre real musicians behind that shit.

I dont wanna say the soul has been totally taken away from hip hop, but it nearly has. Not everyone can make a beat that makes you actually feel something inside you no homo. Alot of us dont get amped for 90% of the beats we hear now like we would for old beats. We accept them, and listen to them. But we're not really gettting anything out of them.. We're just listenign to hip hop still as a habit.
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Old 05-11-2009, 11:46 AM   #8
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great type, but i usually develope these opinions when im listening too to much wu tang and shit

then i step out side my comfort zone and realize that aint nothing in hip hop gone anywhere







i dont listen to any of these fags, but if you're doubting these beats in the least way then stop listening to rap cause your just not interested anymore.


there's ppl calling Blood On Chef's Apron a classic mixtape not knowing what's out there.

even Lil Wayne is making Wu'er shit.




gully ass remake, which is what most classic hip hop beats are anyways.

if this was last week when i was listening to too much wutang i would agree, beats are as good or better then in the past and this is coming from someone that like the 90s more then now.
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Old 05-11-2009, 11:55 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSA View Post






i dont listen to any of these fags, but if you're doubting these beats in the least way then stop listening to rap cause your just not interested anymore.

thats bold.

if im gonna be hyper critical im gonna say those beats arent up to a high level because its easy to hear the seperate parts of the beat and how it was put together. Im not saying I dont like those songs. I dont think theyre as good as your saying however.

It should all just mesh into one sound, thats how to succesfully use a sample. I shouldnt be pickign out the drum line, and the string sample underneath right away.

That the beats-by-numbers shit I was talking about. Im trying not to go after individual shit though like this, im generalising over the genre. We all know there are acceptions.

But the songs you posted do not at all demostrate any progression whatsoever and are the same shit ive been listening to for 10 years.
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Old 05-11-2009, 11:56 AM   #10
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also the 90s, like now, wasn't an era pooling with innovators, just 3 or 4 innovators, and copiers

its just some ppl would rather hear the 90s style then now.







IM ULTRA, THE FLOW IS MAGNETIC


anyways, this is just this year, hell this season i've been posting and all these beats can shit on 90% of the 90s. Unless you're a dick rider that has just immortalized the era in your head and created an illusion of 100% flawness that will never be matched based on nothing at all.
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Old 05-11-2009, 12:05 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GHOSTLACED View Post
thats bold.

if im gonna be hyper critical im gonna say those beats arent up to a high level because its easy to hear the seperate parts of the beat and how it was put together. Im not saying I dont like those songs. I dont think theyre as good as your saying however.

It should all just mesh into one sound, thats how to succesfully use a sample. I shouldnt be pickign out the drum line, and the string sample underneath right away.

That the beats-by-numbers shit I was talking about. Im trying not to go after individual shit though like this, im generalising over the genre. We all know there are acceptions.

But the songs you posted do not at all demostrate any progression whatsoever and are the same shit ive been listening to for 10 years.
well look at the 90s


you had dre, the ENTIRE westcoast sounded like him UNLESS the threw in Too Short bay area style bases


you had Rza Primo and Pete Rock, the ENTIRE east sounded like some type of blend of the 3 if not a full blown knock off of one.

then you have exceptions here and there that would come with something.


in order for your post to not be bias and overtly nostalgic your would have to show me how any of this is wrong, we know as a fact that copying was the name of the game in the 90s for the most part expecially from 94 and beyond, but everyone was just sounding like each other

which im not saying is a bad thing, it was a good ass sound to imitate.
but imitation was law, look at NY pre- and post- Cuban linx

it got to the point that ppl were wearing raekwons chain.








another thing, imitation still produces excellent ass music.
Reasonable Doubt and Infamous was in no way innovative, but still an excellent albums.

and a few more GOAT albums show little no production innovations

i think being a wu fan kinda of skews things cause in their hay day wu was constantly innovating with every album, but otherside of them the field then looked how it does today


ppl copying a handful of innovators
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Old 05-11-2009, 12:10 PM   #12
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yeah but lol, your missing some important points

-the people they were copying (Dre, RZA, Pete, Preem) were taking THEIR inspiration NOT from hip hop.
-you couldnt really go wrong copying Dre or RZA or whoever back int he early 90's. Even if you failed, you won.


But now we got the producers who are copying the producers who were copying the guys like Dre/Rza.
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Old 05-11-2009, 12:15 PM   #13
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well all that is time talking. Rza got alot of his shit from Marly Marl
Dre's was out of nowhere though, after rza has his riegn anyone copying him is copying someone that's copying marly marl

then after sometime someone will be copying someone that's copying that person


plus back in dre and thems time there wasn't much in hip hop too copy cause it was still developing. Hip hop now has such a wide range of sounds and bitchin material that copying other hip hop still makes sense.

why would you copy tim mcgraw when you can copy Primo now?







plus, off the top of the head, there's been a SHIT load of innovations in rap, innovation just doesn't always = good though, remember that

kayne's sound(s)
alchemists sound
crunk
hyphy/bay area new sound
New Orleans sound
various fusions including hip hop and country
dre's post 2001 sound
chopped and screwed
Ghost's continued innovations
SUPER short sample (as used on Stroke of Death and A Milli)

like them or not they're still a handful of new sounds. none are pure 100% innovations but a lot of them are still more different from eachother then the production on BacDaFucUp to Enta Da Stage


also, oh well, if shit is hard body who cares
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Old 05-11-2009, 12:17 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GHOSTLACED View Post
But now we got the producers who are copying the producers who were copying the guys like Dre/Rza.
haha true, cats who are copying Kanye are all around myspace and youtube.





and these 'super-producers'----they're getting lazy, repetitive, and higly overated.

mega lol @ pollow da don who got owned by some bulgarian that found out that PDD used stock beats from different software...



and don't forget OVERPRODUCING (I SEE YOU RZA).




Quote:
Originally Posted by TSA View Post
SUPER short sample (as used on Stroke of Death and A Milli)
underated technique.... all you producers, watch out 4 this !!!!!!!!!


my friends makes whole entire beats out of 0.5 seconds samples and he builds'em like fuckin LEGO bricks. Untraceable by sample hunters


Havoc used to travel throughout entire Europe in order to get records, so he could get new sample base(very smart even though his beats suck these days ). USA Soul samples are overused. and that's a fact.


@ GHOSTLACED and TSA : you both have strong points, nice posts.
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Old 05-11-2009, 12:28 PM   #15
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^yeah RZA also said he loved record shopping in Europe the most
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