Church Vs. God.

[Obey]

Originally Posted by Face of the Golden Falcon

He is God.

He was killed. Which is still against the commandments of the Torah. And it was against his will. "Not my will by yours" Jesus said in the garden. That's murder.

To me that sounds like he laid down his life. So you're saying God literally picked up the hammer and nails and killed him

[Face of the Golden Falcon]

Originally Posted by Obey

Name another book 2013 years old, or older that was written to the account of Christ or any religious prophet or leader for that matter. All the books in the Bible were written at different times in history and collaborated together forming the Bible. In other words, they were all once separate books

There are a number of books or writings from the same time span of the books in the bible that are about the Jews and/or Jesus that were left out of the Bible. Some don't account for either the birth or death of Jesus, some have the same events or similar as the gospel and have a person of a different name. One early christian scholar claimed that the notion that Jesus was crucified at 33 was absurd. The name escapes me, but that's all I'm going to say. I'm not going to find your evidence for you. Are you aware of the motives of the people who formed the Bible as a collection of books?

Originally Posted by Obey

To me that sounds like he laid down his life. So you're saying God literally picked up the hammer and nails and killed him

I'm not saying anything. I'm playing Shiva's advocate to see if I can influence some questioning and addressing of the holes in your beliefs and in Biblical scripture.

So far when viewed from christiopaulisticonstantinism biblical scripture doesn't make a lick of sense unless you make a lot of excuses and use a lot of circular logic.

[Obey]

Okay, so if you didn't realize I answered my own question in my statement. You further proved my statement to be true by saying there are other testimonies/letters/books not included in the Bible, which affirm Christs existence on earth, which I also know to be correct. You agreed there is other evidence of Jesus Christ. So what are you really getting at here?

[Face of the Golden Falcon]

Originally Posted by Obey

Okay, so if you didn't realize I answered my own question in my statement. You further proved my statement to be true by saying there are other testimonies/letters/books not included in the Bible, which affirm Christs existence on earth, which I also know to be correct. You agreed there is other evidence of Jesus Christ. So what are you really getting at here?

I asked for evidence of a virgin birth and I might also add crucified and risen Jesus Christ. I have no problem with the notion that an actual person who would have been called Yashu'a may have existed. The other astrotheological themes that were added to his life and claimed to be actual historic fact I'm going to need a whooooole lot of evidence for before I believe it.

Like I said there are writings for a historical Jesus, for a virgin birth, for a crucified Jesus, for a risen Jesus and every combination of those you can put together including none of them together at all. That coupled with the fact that these themes have also been added to the stories of countless "hero" figures of the past how do you compromise that with your beliefs?

[Obey]

Jesus made many miracles happen. How else can there be any other, or better proof other than the writings of the people that followed him. His miracle birth is the same, only Mary and Joseph actually witnessed the miracle

[Obey]

Originally Posted by Obey

Isaiah 7:14 (around 700BC) Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

Evidence

[Face of the Golden Falcon]

Round and round and up and down. It's been a helluva ride, but I'm hopping off.

[Longbongcilvaringz]

Originally Posted by rakimkoolgrapwutang

but how do you know jesus actually said that. isnt it totally possible that the author couldve put words into his mouth.

jesus said thinks like "forgive others and your sins will be forgiven". here he says sin is forgiven because of forgiving, not because of sacrifices.

but later paul tries to connect jesus' death with jewish sacrifice which is sloppy for many reasons.

also the gospels never actually mention the name of the author. it could be anyone called matthew/mark/luke or people pretending to be them.

in fact ive heard commentators state that marks gospel looks as if he used different sources and it wasnt written from his memory.

so how accurate are these other sources.

tbh i think its obvious that lots of people put their own words into jesus' mouth.

its impossible to be 100% certain what jesus' true teachings were but personally i always thought of him as a kind idiot and people just used his influence for their own selfish reasons.

I'm talking about the New Testament character that is Jesus as this is the Jesus which Christians believe in. It's in this sense that the character's morals are sporadic and often unacceptable to me. As a historical figure i can accept Jesus as an important radical thinker....

It's not really important who wrote religious texts (they're collaborative, evolving products as someone mentioned anyway), i'm only addressing what is written in the books which religious people base their beliefs upon.

[Longbongcilvaringz]

Originally Posted by Obey

Longbong, correct me if I'm wrong, to me it looks like you're trying to justify your opinion with more opinion and without fact

Actually, i was expounding on what i previously said because you addressed it. I'm not trying to justify my opinion, i was trying to respond to your questions and comments about it. You've twice told me what i'm trying to say, and twice been off the mark, so obviously i'm not explaining myself in a way which you can understand... that's ok.

Your comment about "facts" is strange.... what facts should i be presenting in relation to my own views on morality? What moral facts exist in your opinion?

Are facts relevant to a thread most consisting of one guy stating that things written in a book are true because they're written in that book....

[Obey]

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...7173333AABNda6

[THE W]

Originally Posted by rakimkoolgrapwutang

but how do you know jesus actually said that. isnt it totally possible that the author couldve put words into his mouth.

jesus said thinks like "forgive others and your sins will be forgiven". here he says sin is forgiven because of forgiving, not because of sacrifices.

but later paul tries to connect jesus' death with jewish sacrifice which is sloppy for many reasons.

also the gospels never actually mention the name of the author. it could be anyone called matthew/mark/luke or people pretending to be them.

in fact ive heard commentators state that marks gospel looks as if he used different sources and it wasnt written from his memory.

so how accurate are these other sources.

tbh i think its obvious that lots of people put their own words into jesus' mouth.

its impossible to be 100% certain what jesus' true teachings were but personally i always thought of him as a kind idiot and people just used his influence for their own selfish reasons.

translation:

"i think the bible and everything in it is bullshit."

we got you..

[THE W]

"forgive others and your sins will be forgiven"

"i desire mercy not sacrifice"

how do you know jesus actually said these things?

[LORD NOSE]

i'm getting my post erased in the Hip Hop spot and in the digital underground for not being a christian -

[THE W]

i didnt do it

[LORD NOSE]

there were no post erased