0
 

home
news
wu-tang clan
bio's
media
store
blogs
forum
contact

Go Back   Wu-Tang Corp. - Official Site of the Wu-Tang Clan > The Elements > Know The Ledge

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-22-2010, 04:57 PM   #61
Rollo
An act of God
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 657
Rep Power: 0
Rollo drunken mastaRollo drunken mastaRollo drunken masta
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WUnded Fox View Post
what you call new age is older than both religion and atheism.

asshole.
I call? Everyone calls! Although some might call it Oprah...
Crazy whore...
__________________
Rollo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2010, 05:04 PM   #62
Frank Sobotka
Veteran Member
 
Frank Sobotka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,825
Rep Power: 16
Frank Sobotka five deadly venomsFrank Sobotka five deadly venomsFrank Sobotka five deadly venomsFrank Sobotka five deadly venomsFrank Sobotka five deadly venomsFrank Sobotka five deadly venomsFrank Sobotka five deadly venomsFrank Sobotka five deadly venomsFrank Sobotka five deadly venomsFrank Sobotka five deadly venoms
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WUnded Fox View Post
i don't see how those two things are in opposition.
If I have freewill he can't have complete power over me.
__________________
Frank Sobotka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2010, 05:04 PM   #63
DRUNKENDRAGON
Veteran Member
 
DRUNKENDRAGON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Buffalo, N.Y.
Posts: 803
Rep Power: 14
DRUNKENDRAGON iron monkeyDRUNKENDRAGON iron monkeyDRUNKENDRAGON iron monkeyDRUNKENDRAGON iron monkeyDRUNKENDRAGON iron monkey
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WUnded Fox View Post
no.
latinos are.
Those identifying themselves as atheists doubled from 7% in 1990 to more than 15% in 2009, making atheists officially the fastest growing minority in the US.

Quote:
you do have faith in the singularity. cause there is not a single shred of proof. NONE. ZERO.
The universe had a beginning, Hubble's Law, Penzia's and Wilson's CMB which pervades the universe, and the abundance of helium and hydrogen are but some of the evidence which supports the big bang.

Faith is a belief in something without evidence. You're showing a lack of understanding of what you're arguing against.

Quote:
science does try and is trying to find God. and in fact a large percentage of scientist believe in God.
This holds no significance whatsoever. Newton had several rather insane beliefs yet it does not mean gravity doesn't exist.

Quote:
i'm beginning to think that you don't even follow current science and are basing your perspective on old paradigms. show me why i'm mistaken.
I'm beginning to think you're trolling. No one could be this irredeemably stupid.
__________________
DRUNKENDRAGON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2010, 05:07 PM   #64
DRUNKENDRAGON
Veteran Member
 
DRUNKENDRAGON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Buffalo, N.Y.
Posts: 803
Rep Power: 14
DRUNKENDRAGON iron monkeyDRUNKENDRAGON iron monkeyDRUNKENDRAGON iron monkeyDRUNKENDRAGON iron monkeyDRUNKENDRAGON iron monkey
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WUnded Fox View Post
i don't see how those two things are in opposition.
Free will is god given, therefore I have free will not by my own choice to have free will, but by god's edict that I MUST have free will. Can I choose NOT to have free will?

The term itself implies a path or road of goodness that should be followed, yet you have the choice to diverge, The problem arises when religions state any divergence from this path results in hellfire, reducing free will to a form of celestial rebellion which is in turn, punished. Doesn't sound like free will at all if you ask me.
__________________
DRUNKENDRAGON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2010, 05:14 PM   #65
Rollo
An act of God
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 657
Rep Power: 0
Rollo drunken mastaRollo drunken mastaRollo drunken masta
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ikke View Post
If I have freewill he can't have complete power over me.
You may have free will but your choices are ultimately limited to the possibilities he's allotted for you.
So... yes, he can.


Of course, even if you had free will beyond what he has allowed, being omnipotent means he can commit logical contradictions.
It's kind of like the Augustinian paradox, "Can God cast a stone so heavy, God himself cannot lift it?"

It's already acknowledged that since he is both omnipresent and omnipotent he can.
If he exists in one form which cannot and another which he can, well...

God isn't something you can really put a logical paradox on.
Humans and other material entities on the other hand, you can.
A better way to ask your question would be "If God is all knowing, how can I have free will? Surely I am not free to do anything outside of his knowledge" but even that falls to the previous scenerio I mentioned.


That leaves a salty taste in most people's mouths.
They'd rather have an answer that seems rational.
The problem is a God who can literally create from nothing isn't bound by our reason.

And that will continue to piss people off for years to come.
__________________
Rollo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2010, 05:23 PM   #66
Uncle Steezo
Gen Chat Bully
 
Uncle Steezo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: 5th Dimension
Posts: 14,743
Rep Power: 118
Uncle Steezo Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Uncle Steezo Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Uncle Steezo Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Uncle Steezo Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Uncle Steezo Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Uncle Steezo Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Uncle Steezo Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Uncle Steezo Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Uncle Steezo Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Uncle Steezo Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Uncle Steezo Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRUNKENDRAGON View Post
Those identifying themselves as atheists doubled from 7% in 1990 to more than 15% in 2009, making atheists officially the fastest growing minority in the US.

The universe had a beginning, Hubble's Law, Penzia's and Wilson's CMB which pervades the universe, and the abundance of helium and hydrogen are but some of the evidence which supports the big bang.

the singularity. not big bang. the IDEA that everything was once one.
zero evidence.

Faith is a belief in something without evidence. You're showing a lack of understanding of what you're arguing against.

see above


This holds no significance whatsoever. Newton had several rather insane beliefs yet it does not mean gravity doesn't exist.

gravity is not completely understood. so this may or may not be true.

I'm beginning to think you're trolling. No one could be this irredeemably stupid.
you are beginning to sound like a fundamentalist who gets mad when his faith is challenged.

do some more studying then come back. we can continue this when you feel ready.




rollo gets rep for the last post.
Uncle Steezo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2010, 05:26 PM   #67
Mumm Ra
God's Replica
 
Mumm Ra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Black Pyramid
Age: 29
Posts: 9,924
Blog Entries: 2
Rep Power: 77
Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRUNKENDRAGON View Post
Free will is god given, therefore I have free will not by my own choice to have free will, but by god's edict that I MUST have free will. Can I choose NOT to have free will?
YES.
most people do actually -
if you base all your decisions on base desires, emotions, impulses and automated responses then you don't really have free will, do you?
Quote:
The term itself implies a path or road of goodness that should be followed, yet you have the choice to diverge, The problem arises when religions state any divergence from this path results in hellfire, reducing free will to a form of celestial rebellion which is in turn, punished. Doesn't sound like free will at all if you ask me.
you don't think there's a path of 'goodness' (for lack of better term) to be followed?
try living completely irrationally - try eating nothing but mcdonalds for a year - try punching random strangers -
and see what 'hellfire' you bring upon yourself

so yes - we have free will, even free will to live like a savage if we choose
__________________

Last edited by Mumm Ra; 03-22-2010 at 05:48 PM.
Mumm Ra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2010, 05:38 PM   #68
Frank Sobotka
Veteran Member
 
Frank Sobotka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,825
Rep Power: 16
Frank Sobotka five deadly venomsFrank Sobotka five deadly venomsFrank Sobotka five deadly venomsFrank Sobotka five deadly venomsFrank Sobotka five deadly venomsFrank Sobotka five deadly venomsFrank Sobotka five deadly venomsFrank Sobotka five deadly venomsFrank Sobotka five deadly venomsFrank Sobotka five deadly venoms
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRUNKENDRAGON View Post
Free will is god given, therefore I have free will not by my own choice to have free will, but by god's edict that I MUST have free will. Can I choose NOT to have free will?

The term itself implies a path or road of goodness that should be followed, yet you have the choice to diverge, The problem arises when religions state any divergence from this path results in hellfire, reducing free will to a form of celestial rebellion which is in turn, punished. Doesn't sound like free will at all if you ask me.
Lol Didn't look at it like that.

I'm going to use this in my anti-religion arguments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
You may have free will but your choices are ultimately limited to the possibilities he's allotted for you.
So... yes, he can.


Of course, even if you had free will beyond what he has allowed, being omnipotent means he can commit logical contradictions.
It's kind of like the Augustinian paradox, "Can God cast a stone so heavy, God himself cannot lift it?"

It's already acknowledged that since he is both omnipresent and omnipotent he can.
If he exists in one form which cannot and another which he can, well...

God isn't something you can really put a logical paradox on.
Humans and other material entities on the other hand, you can.
A better way to ask your question would be "If God is all knowing, how can I have free will? Surely I am not free to do anything outside of his knowledge" but even that falls to the previous scenerio I mentioned.


That leaves a salty taste in most people's mouths.
They'd rather have an answer that seems rational.
The problem is a God who can literally create from nothing isn't bound by our reason.

And that will continue to piss people off for years to come.
This sounds like "I have no proof whatsoever but it's true"
__________________
Frank Sobotka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2010, 06:03 PM   #69
Rollo
An act of God
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 657
Rep Power: 0
Rollo drunken mastaRollo drunken mastaRollo drunken masta
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ikke View Post
Lol Didn't look at it like that.

I'm going to use this in my anti-religion arguments.


This sounds like "I have no proof whatsoever but it's true"


Sounds like you have no idea what you're arguing.
You cannot seperate the concept/definition of God from omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience because that is a part of that concept/definition.
I'm not saying it exists or is a fact that happened.

I'm saying, that's what God(the idea, the possible being) is.
If you're trying to dispute God, that's what you are disputing.
If your argument doesn't address that, then you have no argument at all.

You have to know what you're debating before you draw up an argument.
Sounds like you don't...
__________________
Rollo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2010, 06:20 PM   #70
Mumm Ra
God's Replica
 
Mumm Ra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Black Pyramid
Age: 29
Posts: 9,924
Blog Entries: 2
Rep Power: 77
Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)
Default

^ and yet modern science is moving closer each day to proving the universe itself is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient.
so why try to say 'god' is illogical and irrational? (not pointing to anyone specifically)

look at quantum entanglement for instance - all things are interconnected
__________________
Mumm Ra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2010, 06:30 PM   #71
Frank Sobotka
Veteran Member
 
Frank Sobotka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,825
Rep Power: 16
Frank Sobotka five deadly venomsFrank Sobotka five deadly venomsFrank Sobotka five deadly venomsFrank Sobotka five deadly venomsFrank Sobotka five deadly venomsFrank Sobotka five deadly venomsFrank Sobotka five deadly venomsFrank Sobotka five deadly venomsFrank Sobotka five deadly venomsFrank Sobotka five deadly venoms
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
Sounds like you have no idea what you're arguing.
You cannot seperate the concept/definition of God from omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience because that is a part of that concept/definition.
I'm not saying it exists or is a fact that happened.

I'm saying, that's what God(the idea, the possible being) is.
If you're trying to dispute God, that's what you are disputing.
If your argument doesn't address that, then you have no argument at all.

You have to know what you're debating before you draw up an argument.
Sounds like you don't...
I see, Posted something similar on page 1 or 2.
Filling in the definition of "God" with what we do know and not some ridiculous speculation.

Thought you were some religious guy saying god is so great we as humans cannot grasp his existance (as in a consiousness).
__________________
Frank Sobotka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2010, 06:50 PM   #72
Rollo
An act of God
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 657
Rep Power: 0
Rollo drunken mastaRollo drunken mastaRollo drunken masta
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumm Ra View Post
^ and yet modern science is moving closer each day to proving the universe itself is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient.
so why try to say 'god' is illogical and irrational? (not pointing to anyone specifically)

look at quantum entanglement for instance - all things are interconnected
Well, the universe would be omnipresent, it isn't actually expanding into anything, it is everything.
However, omnipotent? It is still bound by the finite expressions and principles that define it.

I think the best argument for a God is that those principles and intelligible expressions exist to begin with.
intelligible languages, codexes, syntaxes all require a sentient oracle...


Before a material universe could exist, this information had to exist as it's own dimension.
Just as the blueprint of a home is made before hand, a blueprint of everything that was and will be must have been as well. The data already exists now, we're just uncovering it piece by piece. The problem with an omnipotent self creating universe is simply that information itself cannot poof into existence. As I said before, only a sentient being of some sort could have defined these laws and expressions.
__________________
Rollo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2010, 06:55 PM   #73
Mumm Ra
God's Replica
 
Mumm Ra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Black Pyramid
Age: 29
Posts: 9,924
Blog Entries: 2
Rep Power: 77
Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo View Post

Before a material universe could exist, this information had to exist as it's own dimension.
Just as the blueprint of a home is made before hand, a blueprint of everything that was and will be must have been as well. The data already exists now, we're just uncovering it piece by piece. The problem with an omnipotent self creating universe is simply that information itself cannot poof into existence. As I said before, only a sentient being of some sort could have defined these laws and expressions.
now we're getting somewhere
__________________
Mumm Ra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2010, 07:22 PM   #74
Mumm Ra
God's Replica
 
Mumm Ra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Black Pyramid
Age: 29
Posts: 9,924
Blog Entries: 2
Rep Power: 77
Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)Mumm Ra Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)
Default

i forgot who i was talking to this about on here - but we mentioned that maybe god works through multiple faculties
maybe that 'information dimension' IS god?
formless...and being the information and foundation of all things in existence
__________________
Mumm Ra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2010, 07:50 PM   #75
LORD NOSE
The Smell of The Future
 
LORD NOSE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Double Barreled Snot Gun
Age: 1
Posts: 14,647
Blog Entries: 4
Rep Power: 70
LORD NOSE Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)LORD NOSE Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)LORD NOSE Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)LORD NOSE Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)LORD NOSE Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)LORD NOSE Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)LORD NOSE Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)LORD NOSE Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)LORD NOSE Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)LORD NOSE Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)LORD NOSE Iron Lungs (Fists of Legend)
Default

who said that one cannot learn anything in KTL ?
__________________
LORD NOSE is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:20 PM.


Copyright 2000 - 2013 The Wu-Tang Corp. & shift-one