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Old 09-16-2010, 09:40 PM   #31
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I think the atheists you personally know have led you to make sweeping generalizations about the rest of the community of people who identify themselves as that.


But like I said in my post about being a Singularitarian (which is not a substitute for traditional religion) ... that a man still needs to hold a set of values/morals which lead him in the right path and those can come from anywhere, but you wont get far consulting the spagetti monster.
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Old 09-16-2010, 09:42 PM   #32
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and scientology is just another ponzi scheme, more polished and more "ooohs and ahhhs" batteries and teachings not included.
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Old 09-16-2010, 09:46 PM   #33
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touched a nerve eh? look dude, if you want to believe you are the result of a one in a infinitesimally small chance of random assembly of atomic particles then thats your biz. but realize that you are just as deep in a fairytale as any other religious nut.
You tell me I need to read Hubbard's hack pulp sci-fi, looks like you need to read up on some basic evolutionary biology.

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by recognizing that there is a power higher than yourself you also have to accept that you have a responsibility to that power.
How about I just recognize that I have a responsibility to my fellow human beings and would like to make life better for them on earth, HERE AND NOW, not because I feel obligated to serve some omniscient master who can give me no concrete proof of his existence.

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atheism is just as silly as xenu or the spaghetti monster.
Funny that you should mention the spaghetti monster, which happens to be a JOKE invented by skeptics to criticize the idea of creationism. You still haven't explained why atheism or any nonbelief is sillier than accepting the idea of an omniscient creator because an old (or new) book says so and said book says that what it says is THE TRUTH (tm). All you spout off are strawmen.

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you obviously haven't read dianetics so i'm going to chalk up your comments to ignorance.
If the silly pseudoscientific ideas in Dianetics helped you in some self-discovery, more power to ya. I'm just trying to make you aware of the very sinister and money-grubbing origins of said "holy" book.

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as far as knowing atheists, yes i know a few and they all rationalize their behavior by hiding behind the fact that "there is no God and therefore my actions have no significance beyond my sphere of influence."
Well I'm sorry that you know some rather shitty atheists. Like I said, we're all human. I'm also very sorry for you that you need the idea of an omnipotent sky-daddy to make you behave like a decent person and care about other people, but be aware that there are many atheists who do care about their place in society and who they affect, but don't need any comforting fairytales or sanctimonious revelations to make them take action.

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but thanks for your input.
Thanks for yours.
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Old 09-16-2010, 09:46 PM   #34
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he asked me and i answered.
so in his world of 5 sense reality, since i never met an atheist who didn't think that way, then they must not exist. but i will say that every atheist i come in contact with is so full of "i dont believe in god therefore i'm smarter/better than you" that they really aren't the type of people i'd want to get to know anyway.

they sound EXACTLY like any other religious extremist.
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Old 09-16-2010, 09:59 PM   #35
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[QUOTE=Cthulhu;1966340]You tell me I need to read Hubbard's hack pulp sci-fi, looks like you need to read up on some basic evolutionary biology.

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by recognizing that there is a power higher than yourself you also have to accept that you have a responsibility to that power.[./quote]

How about I just recognize that I have a responsibility to my fellow human beings and would like to make life better for them on earth, HERE AND NOW, not because I feel obligated to serve some omniscient master who can give me no concrete proof of his existence.



Funny that you should mention the spaghetti monster, which happens to be a JOKE invented by skeptics to criticize the idea of creationism. You still haven't explained why atheism or any nonbelief is sillier than accepting the idea of an omniscient creator because an old (or new) book says so and said book says that what it says is THE TRUTH (tm). All you spout off are strawmen.


If the silly pseudoscientific ideas in Dianetics helped you in some self-discovery, more power to ya. I'm just trying to make you aware of the very sinister and money-grubbing origins of said "holy" book.



Well I'm sorry that you know some rather shitty atheists. Like I said, we're all human. I'm also very sorry for you that you need the idea of an omnipotent sky-daddy to make you behave like a decent person and care about other people, but be aware that there are many atheists who do care about their place in society and who they affect, but don't need any comforting fairytales or sanctimonious revelations to make them take action.


Thanks for yours.

you have made a few assumptions:

i support the church of scientology
i believe in the afterlife rewards system
i believe in skygod
i am a christian

all false.

this is the biggest fallacy that i see in atheism. they assume islamic-judeo-christian belief systems are the only forms of worship.

so its easy for them to turn their nose up at the idea of there being a god.

atheism is silly to me because it violates the very laws it tries to adhere to.
the biggest red flag is the something from nothing origin of the universe.
second, is the random formation of the dna molecule.

why does anyone feel the need to take care of others? would you call that love? love of family? love of humanity? what is love? is it an electrochemical reation? or is it the result of billions of years of evolution?

i would try to read some alternative "holy books" and even some new science books with an open mind before making such arrogant posts. you might surprise yourself and learn a few things about what you think reality is all about.
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Old 09-16-2010, 10:00 PM   #36
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he asked me and i answered.
so in his world of 5 sense reality, since i never met an atheist who didn't think that way, then they must not exist. but i will say that every atheist i come in contact with is so full of "i dont believe in god therefore i'm smarter/better than you" that they really aren't the type of people i'd want to get to know anyway.

they sound EXACTLY like any other religious extremist.
Here we go again with the straw men. Nowhere did I say I only believe what I can perceive with my 5 senses. That's called solipsism. All I say is that I find the idea of an omnipotent creator unnecessary to explain natural phenomena and that the specific, and might I add, drastically varying accounts of this/these creator(s) written about in many books to be even less likely than the idea of some vague non-denominational omniscient intelligence creating everything.

And yes, atheists, including myself, can be sanctimonious towards believers. Myself, I generally don't do that to anyone I talk to in person because I'm a pretty laid back guy that would rather be your friend. I would only go off on the subject if you invited me to it or if you came at me on the street with some bigoted pamphlet. I don't believe atheists are inherently smarter than religious people by any means, but a lot of us do get a bit full of ourselves when we see people who could otherwise be very intelligent deluding themselves with ideas that look really phony to us or are insulting to the intelligence of anyone who doesn't share that particular sectarian view (believer or non-believer).
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Old 09-16-2010, 10:06 PM   #37
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and scientology is just another ponzi scheme, more polished and more "ooohs and ahhhs" batteries and teachings not included.
i dont think you know what a ponzi scheme is...(good thing you got wikipedia for brains) but if you would plz entertain me....

btw good discussion
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Old 09-16-2010, 10:08 PM   #38
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a man still needs to hold a set of values/morals which lead him in the right path and those can come from anywhere, but you wont get far consulting the spagetti monster.
but where does that knowledge of the "right path" come from?
by asking yourself this question "what is the right thing to do?" you are in fact communing with God.

you are looking inside of yourself, actually above yourself, trying to speak to a power greater than your own. what you may want to do is not in line with what you "know" you are SUPPOSED to do. this duality is one of the greatest pieces evidence of God.

and i'm not talking conditioning from parents/school. even babies know that inflicting pain on others is wrong.

i wish that faggot sid didn't delet my youtube account cause i did 4 part series explaining why atheism is silly and even posted scientific evidence that supported the existence of an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that we call God.
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Old 09-16-2010, 10:21 PM   #39
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Here we go again with the straw men. Nowhere did I say I only believe what I can perceive with my 5 senses. That's called solipsism. All I say is that I find the idea of an omnipotent creator unnecessary to explain natural phenomena and that the specific, and might I add, drastically varying accounts of this/these creator(s) written about in many books to be even less likely than the idea of some vague non-denominational omniscient intelligence creating everything.

And yes, atheists, including myself, can be sanctimonious towards believers. Myself, I generally don't do that to anyone I talk to in person because I'm a pretty laid back guy that would rather be your friend. I would only go off on the subject if you invited me to it or if you came at me on the street with some bigoted pamphlet. I don't believe atheists are inherently smarter than religious people by any means, but a lot of us do get a bit full of ourselves when we see people who could otherwise be very intelligent deluding themselves with ideas that look really phony to us or are insulting to the intelligence of anyone who doesn't share that particular sectarian view (believer or non-believer).
but here is the thing. you need concrete evidence to accept the existence of a being who exists outside of what we consider to be concrete. its like trying to see a black hole. you can't.

natural phenomena...
science can only describe the laws of the universe. calling divine omniscience "quantum entanglement" does not change the fact that nothing goes on unseen in the universe.

discovering that there is energy and matter that permeates what we thought was a vacuum is no different than acknowledging that "God is everywhere"


yeah there has been a lot of distortion and outright manipulation by the respective institutions but love compassion and forgiveness have never steered anyone wrong.
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Old 09-16-2010, 10:27 PM   #40
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but where does that knowledge of the "right path" come from?
by asking yourself this question "what is the right thing to do?" you are in fact communing with God.

you are looking inside of yourself, actually above yourself, trying to speak to a power greater than your own. what you may want to do is not in line with what you "know" you are SUPPOSED to do. this duality is one of the greatest pieces evidence of God.

and i'm not talking conditioning from parents/school. even babies know that inflicting pain on others is wrong.

i wish that faggot sid didn't delet my youtube account cause i did 4 part series explaining why atheism is silly and even posted scientific evidence that supported the existence of an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that we call God.

I personally try to refrain from using "god" in these discussion because it has too many meanings and interpretations for people on this planet and it makes discussions go astray.

I'd rather use the term architect, being or host.


Trying to explain complex emotions like love or hate and the concept of what it is to be "conscious" is by far the hardest challenge a human can take on.


I can only speculate that this universe is a simulation either closely monitored because we are an interesting species or our role is to carry out some kind of evolutionary algorithm. If our intelligence evolves to the point where it manifests outwards at the speed of light maybe that's when we meet our maker/architect/host.
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Old 09-16-2010, 10:28 PM   #41
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[QUOTE=WUnded Fox;1966347]
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You tell me I need to read Hubbard's hack pulp sci-fi, looks like you need to read up on some basic evolutionary biology.




you have made a few assumptions:

i support the church of scientology
i believe in the afterlife rewards system
i believe in skygod
i am a christian

all false.

this is the biggest fallacy that i see in atheism. they assume islamic-judeo-christian belief systems are the only forms of worship.
I never assumed any of this, except perhaps the Scientology thing. I don't see how you can separate the ideas of Scientology from the sleazy businessman/ideologue who wrote them, but, hey, I'm willing to believe that could be a shortcoming on my part.

In any case, I actually assumed you probably weren't a Christian, but your posts seemed to insinuate that one cannot be moral without believing in a higher power, which I believe to be false.

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so its easy for them to turn their nose up at the idea of there being a god.
Actually, plenty of atheist critics have turned their criticism towards non-Abrahamic religions as well as pseudo-sciences and superstitions as well. In fact, the very fact that I am criticizing Scientology should tip you off that I don't hold this straw man view you are supposing, since Scientology couldn't be farther from the Abrahamic religions.

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atheism is silly to me because it violates the very laws it tries to adhere to.
the biggest red flag is the something from nothing origin of the universe.
second, is the random formation of the dna molecule.
Honestly, I'm a layman here and am not the one to help you out with these arguments. I've read the appropriate summaries by experts in their fields, but I don't have the time and energy to summarize them for you here when you could go research that yourself, but for a simple reply, I've read some arguments from quantum physics that something can come from nothing. It's also possible that there never was an ultimate beginning, but things simply were. (In fact, god or some creator isn't really a satisfying explanation to this question, because it then begs the question, who created god? If you just say god was always there, why not just remove god from the picture and say the universe or all the components needed for it to form were already there?) But all this is really missing the point and isn't some precept that atheism is founded upon.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say about DNA. Are you confusing the theory of abiogenesis with the theory of evolution? Generally, the processes aren't random, but follow laws and conditions already preexisting in physics. Again, I'm not the man to explain this to you in detail.

But back to atheism: it's not necessary to have these answers to be logically atheist. That's why I suggested you might just call me a naturalist or even just a skeptic. I leave open the very remote possibility that a god could be real, but I find it to be an unnecessary leap of faith to say that he or it must have created or set things in motion when there is no proof of such a thing. I'd rather say I simply don't know than to belief in something for which there is no proof. If, however, naturalistic thought led us to the conclusion that there is some creator, I would probably accept it (whether I would feel the need to obey this creator is another matter entirely - which begs the question of whether a creator would even care enough about us puny little things to want our worship; he'd have to be some kind of man-child). What I won't do is believe in a creator because someone claimed they received some special revelation and that I should believe them on faith.

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why does anyone feel the need to take care of others? would you call that love? love of family? love of humanity? what is love? is it an electrochemical reation? or is it the result of billions of years of evolution?
Well the answers to the last two questions are probably yes. Evolution does go a long way to explain our behavior and our needs of love and friendship. Humans aren't the strongest animals in the food chain, but we survived through group cohesion with more complicated system of social interaction. A lot of our drives for altruism and familial love can be chalked up to survival and procreation needs.

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i would try to read some alternative "holy books" and even some new science books with an open mind before making such arrogant posts. you might surprise yourself and learn a few things about what you think reality is all about.
If my initial response seemed arrogant, it was only because I was incensed by the very profound arrogance of your original post. Notice I have attempted to level with you. I don't think I'm a superior human being to you because of my beliefs, I just don't belief in any gods or supernatural things and I fail to understand the mindset that needs such things to make sense of the world. Let's face it, we're not gonna meet eye-to-eye. My taking the time to reply to these posts is only an attempt to try to represent atheism from my point of view because I felt you were unfairly, might I say, arrogantly, dismissing it.
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Old 09-16-2010, 10:48 PM   #42
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yeah i feel you. much of the original post that you responded to was a direct jab at boarzhead's mouth since he often comes in here talking out of his ass.

one minute his a buddhist on his path to nirvana the next minute he's a neonazi elitist and now hes a neitzian nihilist. i guess i could have just told him to shut the fuck up.

but to answer your question of why do i believe...
it comes from the heart, if you can get that concept, my mind can understand and accept the science but it doesn't satisfy the heart. because i feel His presence.

its like being in love, someone can tell you that its a combination of desirable traits and a neurological reaction but you know in your heart that its deeper than that.
or to speak to the example of family, you can understand that you want to protect your children in order to continue the species but the feeling your child brings you goes way beyond biology.

biology can't explain away everything because as humans we can transcend our biological nature. this is part of the philosophy behind "we are made in God's image"

for me the best way for me to verbalize "what God is" is that he is an intelligent field of matter/energy that assembles what is inside that field into what we call reality. similar to the way iron filings assemble into lines when placed inside a magnetic field.
a HUGE oversimplification, but i'm trying to be brief.
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Old 09-16-2010, 11:13 PM   #43
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and in these coming decades we will transcend our biological v1.0 bodies and it's going to have profound effects on what it means to be "human". I think our soul or conscious state that can be represented as a unique pattern of information is what remains even when we merge with machine or light.
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Old 09-18-2010, 02:31 PM   #44
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Everything else aside, I think people need to appraise a system of beliefs individually.

Because it is a system of beliefs with certain promises and wrappings it doesn't mean you should immediately praise it or accept.

Looking into Scientology I have learned that it is a pretty nasty organization bent on preying off people's weaknesses, brainwashing them, and taking their money.

There are many 'survivors' of Scientology that attest to these experiences and even go through the specific mechanics of how the organization keeps people in mental straight jackets and extorts them for money or labour.

If you're going to criticize Nietzsche based on how his life turned out, you have to also do the same to Elron Hubbard. A man who inveighed against psychiatry and medical drugs, but went crazy and binged off them in his later years.
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Old 09-18-2010, 04:11 PM   #45
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God is the only real truth I know and my only salvation.
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