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 10-12-2005, 06:28 PM #16 noel411 The ABBOTT     Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Australia Age: 34 Posts: 5,438 Rep Power: 51 Re: Logic Some interesting replies in here. Prolifical, I wasn't so much talking about reasoning as I was about applying general principles of logic to thought processes, but certainly reasoning does play a large part in some of the things I mentioned, such as the ability to discern between fact and fiction. And the reason I used that puzzle as an example of an excercise in logic is for the following reason. After reading the instructions on how to approach the puzzle, the first thing I would expect somebody to think is "where's the rose? where are the petals?", considering all you see is a bunch of squares and dots. I would think that the first logical step would be to figure out what represents the "rose", and what represents the "petals". Once you've done that, it's as simple as counting some dots. However, this is where people seemed to go wrong. Rather than simply just taking a look at what was there, people were talking about using complicated mathematical equations, and algebra and such, which I would personally consider to be a very ilogical approach. Roses, petals, dots, how does that lead someone to complicated mathematical equations? Just my thoughts. __________________ THE LORD noel411 HAS A NEW ALBUM OUT!!! Czech it out here... http://www.wutang-corp.com/forum/sho...80#post2575080 Suck this drunk alcohol dick.
 10-12-2005, 06:32 PM #17 SubtleEnergies Veteran Member   Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 590 Rep Power: 13 Re: Logic Yeah but in all fairness.....when you get a puzzle like the petals on the rose it could be ANYTHING. For all we knew it was mathematical.....everyone who figured it out taking different times....the amount of time it took just depended on which approach you went for first.
 10-12-2005, 06:35 PM #18 noel411 The ABBOTT     Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Australia Age: 34 Posts: 5,438 Rep Power: 51 Re: Logic Which is exactly my point. What I am suggesting is that the most logical approach is to first look at what's actually there, in which case you will quickly notice a very simple pattern. __________________ THE LORD noel411 HAS A NEW ALBUM OUT!!! Czech it out here... http://www.wutang-corp.com/forum/sho...80#post2575080 Suck this drunk alcohol dick.
 10-12-2005, 06:40 PM #19 SubtleEnergies Veteran Member   Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 590 Rep Power: 13 Re: Logic Yeah but you're assuming your way of looking at it is the only way! To me the most logical thing since it was dealing with numbers on a dice was to look for a numerical pattern. Had it been a numerical pattern then right now my way would have been the mosty logical and the other way a waste of time. It depends on the person, no one can immediately know what the most logical approach is to every situation first go.
 10-12-2005, 06:42 PM #20 noel411 The ABBOTT     Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Australia Age: 34 Posts: 5,438 Rep Power: 51 Re: Logic I'm not trying to condemn people in here for their thought processes, just suggesting that some people may benefit from taking a step back from all their "knowledge" seeking, and go back to learning about basic ways in which the human mind (can?) function(s). __________________ THE LORD noel411 HAS A NEW ALBUM OUT!!! Czech it out here... http://www.wutang-corp.com/forum/sho...80#post2575080 Suck this drunk alcohol dick.
 10-12-2005, 06:44 PM #21 SubtleEnergies Veteran Member   Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 590 Rep Power: 13 Re: Logic Yeah I know. I agree. I am just trying to point out that we all rely on trial and error and a bit of luck. Like that Doctor who took a year....he has some issues...in a gap of a year he should have stopped and said to himself...hey my approach isn't working...let's switch it up...which is what I did after staring at it for like 10 minutes...
10-12-2005, 06:46 PM   #22
noel411
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Re: Logic

Quote:
 Originally Posted by SubtleEnergies Yeah but you're assuming your way of looking at it is the only way! To me the most logical thing since it was dealing with numbers on a dice was to look for a numerical pattern. Had it been a numerical pattern then right now my way would have been the mosty logical and the other way a waste of time. It depends on the person, no one can immediately know what the most logical approach is to every situation first go.
Oh goodness no. I don't think my way is the only way. I didn't mean to come off like that. Lets say then that I personally feel that is the most logical approach.

You made a good point here. This is just something to think about. I don't mean to suggest that my way is the only way.
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 10-12-2005, 06:58 PM #23 Prolifical ENG Semi Retired     Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Toronto Age: 34 Posts: 9,644 Rep Power: 46 Re: Logic The way we know the sides of dice, they are symbols that represent numbers. If you really want to learn how the brain works before "knowledge is gained", symbolism is a very important part. Thats what makes that puzzle a challange....the dots on dice never represent flowers in our own experiences with them....and almost everyone has used dice and had to take the sum many times. Since we are trained in seeing dice as numerical symbols, and take account as the title of the puzzle, its almost like trying to read what symbols are without anyones help. __________________
 10-12-2005, 09:33 PM #24 Os3y3ris Veteran Member   Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 938 Rep Power: 15 Re: Logic What the hell do they do with them out west?
10-12-2005, 09:43 PM   #25
Prolifical ENG
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Re: Logic

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Os3y3ris What the hell do they do with them out west?
lmao.

I just said that referring to "the western world" as Im not up to par with what people in the world have never seen 6 sided dice with dots on them. I could have easily said "everyone in the world has seen dice" but that may not be true and I know people like to nitpick in this forum so I failed anyway.
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 10-12-2005, 10:13 PM #26 tostones Senior Member     Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Milwaukee Posts: 222 Rep Power: 0 Re: Logic noel411, The real question is what would happen if you asked a random group of people, totally unassociated with KTL, to take the puzzle test and then recorded their responses. I believe they would probably be similar to the ones in the KTL thread. IMO,one would see its not just "knowledge" seekers, as you wrote it, that would run into problems in instantly solving the puzzle, and hints at a pesonal opinion about this section. What exactly is the basic principle of logic, and does it address the controversy about its nature? Which type of logic are you speaking of? Is logic empirical? What did you mean that an uninhibited perspective is logic? Isn't that objectiveness? Also, you said that logic and common sense had gone amiss, when was it not amiss? peace __________________
 10-12-2005, 10:20 PM #27 Os3y3ris Veteran Member   Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 938 Rep Power: 15 Re: Logic Whoops, there was a typo in my post. I meant to say "out of the west".
10-14-2005, 01:22 AM   #28
noel411
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Re: Logic

Quote:
 The real question is what would happen if you asked a random group of people, totally unassociated with KTL, to take the puzzle test and then recorded their responses. I believe they would probably be similar to the ones in the KTL thread.
It would certainly be interesting to see. You might get the same result, or you might find that most people would just look at what's actually there, and solve it easily. We really can't say.
Quote:
 IMO,one would see its not just "knowledge" seekers, as you wrote it, that would run into problems in instantly solving the puzzle, and hints at a pesonal opinion about this section.
Not quite sure what you meant by the last part of this. If you're saying that I am hinting at a personal opinion about this section, then you must have misunderstood me. I say with no hidden intentions that I think a lot of people here clutter their heads with too much shit, without applying simple thought techniques. That's just my opinion.
Quote:
 What exactly is the basic principle of logic, and does it address the controversy about its nature? Which type of logic are you speaking of? Is logic empirical?
I'm not into this whole breaking down of a word and what is represents, thing. If you read my posts you will understand the context in which I am using the word.
Quote:
 What did you mean that an uninhibited perspective is logic? Isn't that objectiveness?
I'm saying that if you look at something with an uninhibited perspective, then you can approach it from a logical point of view, rather than with a preconcieved basis of how you will or won't interpret it.
Quote:
 Also, you said that logic and common sense had gone amiss, when was it not amiss?
That probably wasn't the best word to use. I more or less just meant that the principles of logic had not been applied.
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 10-14-2005, 09:42 AM #29 Born Ruler I Lord of the Perfect Black   Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Original Mind, Now Cee Posts: 199 Rep Power: 0 Re: Logic It remains, though, that it is symbology, which is a right brain, abstract thought process- not a left brain, linear logical function. One __________________ We are already dead, and are replaying our lives at the judgment. http://www.soundclick.com/pandemoniumakagabriel http://www.myspace.com/pandemoniumgabriel
10-14-2005, 10:16 AM   #30
noel411
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Re: Logic

That's cool. I understand that. I explained my perspective of why I think logic plays a large part in it too though. Man I wish my memory was better. I read a good book on how the brain operates, which covered left and right brain functions, not that long ago. But I've forgotten pretty much everything the fucken thing said, haha. Pity too, because I actually found it highly interesting.

Oh, and I forgot to comment on...
Quote:
 The way we know the sides of dice, they are symbols that represent numbers. If you really want to learn how the brain works before "knowledge is gained", symbolism is a very important part. Thats what makes that puzzle a challange....the dots on dice never represent flowers in our own experiences with them....and almost everyone has used dice and had to take the sum many times. Since we are trained in seeing dice as numerical symbols, and take account as the title of the puzzle, its almost like trying to read what symbols are without anyones help.
Good point.

I do see that what you guys suggest about symbolisism is fitting. Symbolism is an avenue I have personally not explored in great detail, so it is interesting for me to hear your thoughts on its use in that puzzle.
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